Controversial Discussion - Guns

[kirbanmanaburn]

Yeah, because my saying what the average gun buyer at my friend's business tends to look like is exactly the same as Fauxshizle saying that Nigeria is full of juju-practicing witch doctors. That makes a lot of sense.

Both of you have a lot to learn about how to deal with people whose beliefs contradict your own.

 

[kirbanmanaburn]

You always start the actual attacks, but can't seem to see it, or something. Personally, I would appreciate it if you MIGHT consider, possibly, perhaps... closing out your arguments for OR against any subject, with only your arguments for that stand - and without attacking the opposing view, if with nothing else than a closing 'potshot'.

I posted this:

I will just continue to live in a country where nobody owns guns. As for that other country where I grew up -- the one that happens to have a LOT of guns and a LOT of mass shootings...

Well, you all can enjoy it.

Now I'll deploy this ten foot pole...

And Fauxshizle said this:

Remember, take your children to the "Hack up a baby dolphin day", those bloody shallow lagoons of screaming death...always bring back smiles. Yum...dolphin ona stick.

In other words, Japan has had some serious issues, and still does.
Oh, and we don't miss you.

Explain to me how I started this, or made it personal. Also note I've engaged in no name-calling, while Fauxshizle and Orion have called me a pussy, coward, brain-dead, etc.

This happens every time I post my view points because this board is majority conservative, and its biggest loudmouths are conservatives. Further, every regular poster here knows that Orion's dislike for me goes beyond the typical internet variety. So, sorry. I don't start it. I may be a very slow-moving target for certain people who post here, but it's not my job to accommodate those people.

 

[Thatatos]

I agree it is the people that are the issue. I'm not saying arm teachers. Most in fact have no business carrying. In fact even though I carry one I still think it should be hard to be able to get such a permit. (Ok I must admit it was more of a hassle than hard. Lots if hoops to jump and what not but not really all that hard.) That being said someone that has a temper or is easily scared or worse trigger happy, well that should exclude them. And like I said can only speak for California, never lived elsewhere. But the school police here ARE swore officers so I don't see why they can't be armed. As for the police state comment, what I am getting at is a deterrent. Not meant for anything more. It may well have prevent at least part of the tragedy.

To Blitzkrieg:
In a scents we DO have a militia of a sort. One of the biggest reasons this country has never be invaded is the seer number of gun owners. Last year in 3 of the mid west states alone there was 700,000 hunting permits issued. That sound like a minimum of 700,000 guns to me. I don't know very many gun owns that own just one. How about you? As for your 50 BMG, great for turning rocks into sand huh? Mine is Bluegrass Amory. Not done yet. Can't afford the scope yet. After all what is the point of a gun with that kind of range if you can't see that far?

In the end, I shoot for fun and to see what I can do (Distance wise) I train enough that most would consider me a gun nut but the way I see it with most anything of course guns included if your not going to try to be good at it why do it? I also do not hunt and have no desire to kill anything. But would I try to intervene if I saw something like what happened at that school? HELL YES! Even if it cost me my own life. If I had a shot at stopping it, I'd take it. Gun or no gun........

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Aye, as they say with the BMG, if you can see it, you can hit it, lol!

 

[Thatatos]

Question #1They wanted someone to provide a reason as to why owning a semi - automatic assault rifle was necessary and in what scenario it could be used efficiently for good (and other means of protection would not work, glock, etc...)

The definitions of an 'assault rifle' vary from state to state. In California (where I live) we have a list of guns banned by name (Roberti-Roos list) and by feature (sb23). SB23 basically says that if a rifle has a detachable magazine and any of the following, it is an assault rifle:

1) pistol grip
2) folding/telescoping stock
3) flash suppressor
4) bayonnette lug
5) thumbhole stock

There may be others, but those are the big ones. A lot of older battle rifles were very popular with the hunting crowd.

The M1A (A civilian version of the M14), a .308 with a detachable magazine and a flash suppressor became banned over night. This is a long time favorite of collectors, competition shooters, and hunters.

In terms of home protection, an AR15 is not an ideal weapon. Firing one inside the home is not recommended due to concerns the bullet could travel through walls and into unintended things like children. Which is strange because you see SWAT and various other law enforcement agencies using them.

If you go on hikes or live in a rural mountain area, an AR15 is a great companion for safety. The reason we use it in the armed service is the same reason it would be effective in this scenario. It is light, minimal recoil, and accurate. Quick follow up shots and tight groupings allow you to subdue or ward off most threats you'd find (except a bear. wouldn't want to test that would want something bigger).

Question #2 - Should folks with mental disabilities, aspergers, autism, mental illness be taught to shoot gun for any reason?

This is a tough one. There are varying levels of mental disabilities. Just because someone has a difficulty reading for example shouldn't mean that they can't defend themselves.

As far as aspbergers/autism goes, there are a ton (probably millions) of high functioning autistic that just seem to be 'odd'. They can be very successful (they seem to do well in engineering roles) at work and life. It would be a travesty to disallow these kind of people from enjoying the challenge of competition shooting or self defense.

This honestly should be on a case by case basis.

Also, I won't pick this thread apart with how wrong a lot of the answers are, just because you said no digressing!

Your missing one rather important California one. CENTER FIRE, you can own something with everything you listed in rim fire (IE 22) Also the only ammo you can buy that will go in a pistol under the age of 21. But you can buy any rifle ammo at 18. There is one other reason I can put out there for owning and assault style rifle that some may see some may not. There are AR-30's. Same thing as an AR-15 but in .308. It could be used for hunting. The style is easier to carry if the hunter intending to do a lot of hiking. The do tend to be a bit lighter and more compact than a normal bolt gun.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

This is one of my favorite images to represent CA:

lol

 

[htw]

You always start the actual attacks, but can't seem to see it, or something. Personally, I would appreciate it if you MIGHT consider, possibly, perhaps... closing out your arguments for OR against any subject, with only your arguments for that stand - and without attacking the opposing view, if with nothing else than a closing 'potshot'.

I posted this:

I will just continue to live in a country where nobody owns guns. As for that other country where I grew up -- the one that happens to have a LOT of guns and a LOT of mass shootings...

Well, you all can enjoy it.

Now I'll deploy this ten foot pole...

And Fauxshizle said this:

Remember, take your children to the "Hack up a baby dolphin day", those bloody shallow lagoons of screaming death...always bring back smiles. Yum...dolphin ona stick.

In other words, Japan has had some serious issues, and still does.
Oh, and we don't miss you.

Explain to me how I started this, or made it personal. Also note I've engaged in no name-calling, while Fauxshizle and Orion have called me a pussy, coward, brain-dead, etc.

This happens every time I post my view points because this board is majority conservative, and its biggest loudmouths are conservatives. Further, every regular poster here knows that Orion's dislike for me goes beyond the typical internet variety. So, sorry. I don't start it. I may be a very slow-moving target for certain people who post here, but it's not my job to accommodate those people.

I don't have time to search through all the crap you post, but this has nothing to do with you being liberal. This has to do with the typical insult, whether implied or direct, that you throw in.

What purpose did you intend with your first reply in this thread? Did you really just think to jump on your high horse and throw in a snide comment against all Americans and their country, and nobody would get offended?

I will just continue to live in a country where nobody owns guns. As for that other country where I grew up -- the one that happens to have a LOT of guns and a LOT of mass shootings...

Well, you all can enjoy it.

Now I'll deploy this ten foot pole...

Enough, already. Really.

htw

 

[Zeta1]

1st. Semi Automatic and Automatic are basically weapons of close range (aka a mob) or someone who has no business handling a weapon. Marksman's need 1 or 2 shots to get their point made.

I've no problems with citizens owning weapons or even stock piling an arsenal of weapons so long as those weapons are single trigger single bullet weapons. Anything beyond that is to put it bluntly is nothing more than sloppy or simply asking for collateral dmg.

This is a serious question: do you own any firearms or have you ever shot a firearm?

Just so you know I'm not trolling or being a douche, I completely agree with the 2nd half of your post (in regards to parenting, family, respect, etc.)

 

[JimJohnson]

I also suggest you spend more time in Nigeria, you will vanish, and your bones will be made into curse powder by some Witch Doctor.

Blatant, disgusting stereotypical racism. IMHO, this post should be moderated or deleted.

How is that any different then every thing you do to stereotype gun owners?

Then again you retreat to 3rd world countries and call them home/civil even though they allow mass murder. You talk them up like they are better.

 

[fauxshizle]

I also suggest you spend more time in Nigeria, you will vanish, and your bones will be made into curse powder by some Witch Doctor.

Blatant, disgusting stereotypical racism. IMHO, this post should be moderated or deleted.

No...actually this is an extremely common problem...once again..you dont even understand the horrors in the nations you glorify.

Article written for the BBC by a NIGERIAN Leo Igwe
The murder in London of a Nigerian boy, simply named Adam by the British Police, might have brought to international focus and attention one of the most dreadful and horrifying practices in Nigeria - ritual killing.

In September 2001, the mutilated body of “Boy Adam” was found by the British Police floating in the River Thames, near Tower Bridge in London. A top police source suspected that Adam might have been a victim of a style of ritual killing practiced in west and southern Africa. And forensic examination revealed that Adam lived in southwestern Nigeria.

So, early this year, British detectives arrived in Nigeria in search of Adam’s killers. Both the former president of South Africa, Nelson Mandela, and Nigerian soccer player Nwankwo Kanu, made passionate appeals for clues and information leading to the arrest of Adam’s killers.

In July, Police arrested a 37-year-old Nigerian, Sam Onogigovie (in Dublin), and twenty-one other Nigerians in Britain in connection with the murder of Adam. Generally, ritual killing is a common practice in Nigeria. Every year, hundreds of Nigerians lose their lives to ritual murderers, also known as headhunters.

These head hunters go in search of human parts-head, breast, tongue, sexual organs-at the behest of witchdoctors, juju priests, and traditional medicine men who require them for some sacrifices or for the preparation of assorted magical potions.

Recently, there have been several reported cases of individuals who were kidnapped, killed, or had their bodies mutilated by ritualists in Nigeria. The most notorious of them is the one associated with one Chief Vincent Duru, popularly known as Otokoto.

It happened this way: In 1996, the police in the southern Nigerian city of Owerri arrested a man, Innocent Ekeanyanwu, with the head of a young boy, Ikechukwu Okonkwo. In the course of the investigation, the police discovered the buried torso of Ikechukwu on the premises of Otokoto Hotel, owned by Chief Duru, and uncovered a syndicate that specialized in ritual killing and the sale and procurement of human parts. The horrifying discoveries sparked off violent protests in the city of Owerri which led to the burning and looting of properties belonging to suspected killers. Otokoto and his ritualist syndicate were arrested and put on trial, and in February 2003, they were sentenced to death by hanging.

Apart from the Otokoto incident, there have been other instances of ritual murder and mutilation in other parts of the country. For instance, in Calabar, two men plucked out the eyes of a young lady, Adlyne Eze, for money-making ritual. And in Ifo, Ogun state, a businessman inflicted the same harm on his younger sister. In Ibadan, the police in December arrested a taxi driver, Abbas, who used his fourteen-month-old baby for rituals. Abbas killed his child in order to secure a human head, which was one of the materials listed for him by a local witchdoctor for a money-making ritual.

And in another act of ritual horror in Onitsha, Anambra State, two young men, Tobechukwu Okorie and Peter Obasi, seized a boy, Monday Emenike, and cut off his sexual organ with the intention of delivering it to a man, who allegedly offered to pay 1.5 million naira ($11,000) for it. In Kaduna, Danladi Damina was arrested after he exhumed the corpse of a 9-year-old boy, plucked out his eyes and cut off his lips, intending to use them for charms. Recently a woman was caught in a bush in Warri, Delta State, decapitating a four-year-old boy for ritual purposes. And while writing this piece, I read in The Guardian (Nigeria) a report of the murder of an 18-year-old girl, identified as Chioma, by suspected ritualists in Mbaise, Imo State.

The question is: why do Nigerians still engage in such bloody, brutal, and barbaric acts and atrocities even in the twenty-first century? For me, there are three reasons:

Religion: Nigeria is a deeply religious society. Most Nigerians believe in the existence of supernatural beings and that these transcendental entities can be influenced through ritual acts and sacrifices. Rituals constitute part of the people’s traditional religious practice and observance. Nigerians engage in ritual acts to appease the gods, seek supernatural favours, or to ward off misfortune. Many do so out of fear of unpleasant spiritual consequences if they default. So religion, theism, supernaturalism, and occultism are at the root of ritual killing in Nigeria.
Superstition: Nigeria is a society where most beliefs are still informed by unreason, dogmas, myth making, and magical thinking. In Nigeria, belief in ghosts, juju, charms, and witchcraft is prevalent and widespread. Nigerians believe that magical potions prepared with human heads, breasts, tongues, eyes, and sexual organs can enhance one’s political and financial fortunes; that juju, charms and amulets can protect individuals against business failures, sickness and diseases, accidents, and spiritual attacks. In fact, ritual-making is perceived as an act of spiritual fortification.
Poverty: Most often, Nigerians engage ritual killing for money-making purposes. Among Nigerians, there is a popular belief in a special kind of ritual, performed with human blood or body parts that can bring money or wealth, even though such a belief lacks any basis in reason, science or common sense.
For example, there has never been a single proven instance of any Nigerian who became rich through a moneymaking ritual.

And still the belief in “ritual wealth” or “blood money” remains strong among the people and features prominently in the nation’s media and film industry. Most times, what we hear are stories and speculations founded on ignorance and hearsay. For instance, Nigerians who enrich themselves through dubious and questionable means, like the scammers who swindle foreigners, are said to have indulged in money-making rituals using the blood or body parts of their parents, wives, children, or other close relations.

So driven by ignorance, poverty, desperation, gullibility, and irrationalism, Nigerians murder fellow Nigerians for rituals. But ritual killing is not a practice limited to Nigeria. Ritual sacrifices also occur in other parts of sub-Saharan Africa, like in Ghana, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Liberia, Uganda, etc. In fact in some parts of Uganda, a child is sacrificed before a major building is erected. There is therefore an urgent need for an international campaign to end this murderous practice and other horrifying traditions and superstitions in Africa. Personally, I am recommending that the United Nations’ Inter-Africa Committee includes ritual killing in its programs and campaigns as a harmful traditional practice.

Also, skeptics groups should strive to expose the ignorance, superstition, and unreason that underlie the belief in and practice of ritual killing by organizing public education, awareness, and enlightenment campaigns on science education, critical thinking, and rational inquiry.

The case of Adam underscores the need to internationally confront and combat religious obscurantism, dogmatism, and occultism in Africa and the world at large.

In 2001, there were so many cases of ritual killing in the Lagos metropolis that one of the nation’s major newspapers, The Punch, published a scary headline: “Ritualists Lay Siege to Lagos.”

Personally, I think that caption would have better read: “Pseudoscience Lays Siege to Nigeria.” Because that was the case. And that is still the case.

 

[orion949]

Further, every regular poster here knows that Orion's dislike for me goes beyond the typical internet variety.

No, I think what every regular poster here knows about me is that Im an American Soldier who loves his country and believes in freedom and am likely to respond negatively to an insulting, ungrateful, clueless twit posting bullshit on this board.

As JJ said, America has plenty of our own issues that fall into the "needs improvement" category but at the end of the day the principles that form the foundation of our Nation (written in that Constitution that people keep forgetting about) are exactly on point and worth trying to hold onto.

Yes, I AM a nationalist, I love my country, I love my freedom, I respect those that came before me that established it and defended it so that its still here for me.

So, that being said, I also think you know this very well already. I think you come on here and INTENTIONALLY make inflammatory remarks and insults directed specifically at me and those who are like me because you WANT the exact reactions that your getting here right now.

Well done, you got exactly what you fished for and thats fine. But, dont sit there and cry foul and play the role of some poor innocent guy just being abused because his ideas are a different and think your going to get a sympathetic ear.

 

[Mspudd14]

This is a serious question: do you own any firearms or have you ever shot a firearm?

I do not personally own a firearm but I was actually in the National Guard for 6yrs. 11B aka infantry so I was trained and tested regularly on the M16.

 

[fauxshizle]

My uncle, is a gun dealer, he has a storefront, and a website, and reg goes to deal at Firearm shows/conventions. He is a Paramilitary instructor and survivalist. He has told me, every time he sells a firearm or his services he makes a judgement call, which he takes very seriously. If he senses that the person interested in a firearm is not a "responsible" person....he flat out refuses to sell them a weapon. When they throw a fit, he has them fill out a "complaint" form.... then, he turns the "complaint" form into the FBI guy he has on speed dial. He has personally caught 2 of the FBI's most wanted top 100 criminals doing this. The same goes for the militias that have requested his service for training. He does NOT want to participate in training nefarious people on defensive/offensive practices that could lead to the death of FBI/ATF/Police.

I'm sure he could get me ANY weapon i wanted. But, he WOULDN'T get me ANY weapon. Because even though I can pass any FBI background check. He would know that I have no need for a Mac-10.

I own 2 handguns and a 10-gauge shotgun. Twice a year, my wife and I take both our handguns. a .380 and a 38special, and the shotgun, and fire a box of shells at a target. This keeps us familiar with the weapon should someone break into our home. The intruders will not make it back out whatever window they broke to get in...for those of you who think that without a defensive firearm you can be safe during a home invasion, I hope you have many large aggressive dogs...which are many times more dangerous around children.

I would only hope that more people defend their homes this way...

 

[orion949]

I think the vast majority of legal gun dealers and gun owners are law abiding citizens that pose no threat to anyone who does not act criminally against them or their families.

We had a good example here, the owner of our largest gun store had a kid (20 something) come in who could have "legally" purchased anything in the store. But the kid was trying to buy a bunch of black powder that they sell for muzzle loaders. The shop owner felt the kid was acting strangely and he asked him a few questions about muzzle loading rifles and it became clear that he didn't have a fucking clue so obviously he wanted the powder for something else.

The shop owner lied to the kid and told him he had to put him on a waiting list for the powder, got all his info, then reported it to the cops. The cops then traced him to a hotel room where they discovered a bunch of weapons and bomb making material.

Do you think this gun store owners responsible conduct and the thwarting of a possible mass murder ever made the news? Fuck no! Only little kids being murdered makes the news.

 

[SiegeTank]

Man, I'm far more right-leaning than left when it comes to gun rights but some of these posts really make my skin crawl a bit. I mean for every "ultra-reponsible" gunstore vendor like those described in the 2 posts right above, there are probably 10 (or more!) who just want to sell as many guns as possible and make as much money as possible and run their business as close to the cutting edge of the regulations to accomplish that.

Plus, thousands of legal guns get stolen, "lost", sold illegally to unlicensed parties, etc. so it doesn't matter HOW responsibly the initial sale was handled, once the gun is "in circulation", those original "ultra-responsible" gun dealers have no control on what it's used for. Don't you think your "ultra-reponsible" gunstore owner relatives would have happily sold guns to this respectable and rich Connecticut homeowner whose son then accessed the guns to kill 26 innocent people??

My skin crawls a bit too when people start "waxing poetically" on esoteric minutia about their favorite fireams.... like other people taking about the bouquet and "palate feel" of their favorite wine, or the exhaust pipes and deluxe spoilers of their favorite vintage sports cars. I've never owned a gun, don't see the attraction beyond maybe having one for personal protection and even then since I probably wouldn't have the time or discipline to have me and my wife shoot off a boxload of ammo every year to remain familiar with the gun, I'd probably be more of a hazard to my family than a help by having a gun in the house. I wonder what % of gun owners follow that policy; heck, I wonder what % of guns are cleaned as often as they need to be to fire properly.

My point is the number of gun owners who are as responsible as needs to be when it comes to the purchase, storage, control and use of a device which can easily and quickly kill or maim another human being is probably far too low when considering how many firearms are privately owned in this country.

I have a friend who owns something like 50 guns and rifles. He even has a license to "collect" machine guns. Now, come on, why should ANYONE have a license to "collect" machine guns? One collects coins, stamps, comic books and Lladro figurines. None of those collectibles can kill people, well not in most situations. Machine guns should be used for WARFARE.... period. People shouldn't be able to "collect" them anymore than they can legally collect samples of deady viruses or samples of highly radioactive isotopes. Guns should be viewed as dangerous tools for a limited range of very specific uses. Not something to drool over. Last time i checked the Founding Fathers didn't include personal collecting as a rationale for the Second Amendment.

The saddest thing about this school shooting is that NOTHING will change because politicians don't have the guts to do anything about it. They'll be a LOT of talk for the next few weeks---as the media provides "blow to blow" coverage of every single funeral---but then they'll all be buried as well as dead and "Situation-Normal-AFU" will resume.

 

[orion949]

Cars kill more people than guns do and Jay Leno loves his car collection just as much as Charlton Heston probably loved his gun collection.

Indeed some guns are things of art and beauty. (Im stroking my Kimber Custom II as I write this btw)


A photo of my basement:

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Holy shit your basement vault towers mine. Daaaaamn haven't seen a setup like that since this dudes house in Pahrump.

Looks like M1A's, Mosin–Nagants, Mausers, and others I'm not remembering atm. Fancy art sir.

Enfields! 98k? Arisaka?

 

[orion949]

Dude, gotta be ready, the world as we know it ends tomorrow and day one of the Zombie Apocalypse begins!

Edit: Yeah, alotta old shit in there (otherwise known as "classics")

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Just ordered some parts from LMT. Got any 9" M203's lying around FS? lol

 

[hawthorne]

Whelp. party at Orion's if/when the social order breaks down.