Controversial Discussion - Guns

[fauxshizle]

Actually, what Chuck Woolery does is present a completely unsupported claim for which he cites zero credible sources (and I can assure you -- there are none). He does this while playing -- no shit -- clips from a MOVIE, not a historical film recording.

And really, nobody should even have to get that far in the clip to tear it down. The guy is a game show host spewing a bunch of loosely linked logical fallacies that only an utterly credulous, deeply angry white man would ever buy into.

I don't have any adopted nationality, nor do I take any offense at the notion that I'm not a real American. Nationalism is bullshit. Borders are bullshit. I feel just as much obligation toward a Japanese person as I do toward an American or a Nigerian or an Ecuadorian. They're all human beings. I could give a shit what country they come from. Hopefully someday way down the line flags and borders and all that nonsense won't matter anymore.

Though I would point out that -- as far as caring about your countrymen goes -- America's probably the worst place in the world to live. Except for maybe Singapore. It's one of the most competitive societies in the world, with one of the largest income gaps and one of the most insidious racism/sexism problems.

Our patience waiting for you to make any pro/con argument or point in this discussion was misguided. You claim no nation, no identity, and no gender. You have only come to this post to do what? America bash? that's obvious...but your pitiful effort has only succeeded in exposing your personal bigotry and fear of a powerful nation, that you... as a weak and feeble individual, could not compete within.

Run...RUN far away...to the land of the RISING SUN...who's Rays of light, will show you the true path...the path...of a Coward

LONG LIVE THE COWARD...May he forever tuck his tail and run.

Pussy

 

[JimJohnson]

Actually, what Chuck Woolery does is present a completely unsupported claim for which he cites zero credible sources (and I can assure you -- there are none). He does this while playing -- no shit -- clips from a MOVIE, not a historical film recording.

And really, nobody should even have to get that far in the clip to tear it down. The guy is a game show host spewing a bunch of loosely linked logical fallacies that only an utterly credulous, deeply angry white man would ever buy into.

I don't have any adopted nationality, nor do I take any offense at the notion that I'm not a real American. Nationalism is bullshit. Borders are bullshit. I feel just as much obligation toward a Japanese person as I do toward an American or a Nigerian or an Ecuadorian. They're all human beings. I could give a shit what country they come from. Hopefully someday way down the line flags and borders and all that nonsense won't matter anymore.

Though I would point out that -- as far as caring about your countrymen goes -- America's probably the worst place in the world to live. Except for maybe Singapore. It's one of the most competitive societies in the world, with one of the largest income gaps and one of the most insidious racism/sexism problems.

You remember that angry white man you described a few posts before this.

You really describe yourself and the exact type of person that gets recruited to be a brain washed terrorist.

 

[fauxshizle]

Actually, what Chuck Woolery does is present a completely unsupported claim for which he cites zero credible sources (and I can assure you -- there are none). He does this while playing -- no shit -- clips from a MOVIE, not a historical film recording.

And really, nobody should even have to get that far in the clip to tear it down. The guy is a game show host spewing a bunch of loosely linked logical fallacies that only an utterly credulous, deeply angry white man would ever buy into.

I don't have any adopted nationality, nor do I take any offense at the notion that I'm not a real American. Nationalism is bullshit. Borders are bullshit. I feel just as much obligation toward a Japanese person as I do toward an American or a Nigerian or an Ecuadorian. They're all human beings. I could give a shit what country they come from. Hopefully someday way down the line flags and borders and all that nonsense won't matter anymore.

Though I would point out that -- as far as caring about your countrymen goes -- America's probably the worst place in the world to live. Except for maybe Singapore. It's one of the most competitive societies in the world, with one of the largest income gaps and one of the most insidious racism/sexism problems.

You remember that angry white man you described a few posts before this.

You really describe yourself and the exact type of person that gets recruited to be a brain washed terrorist.

Im just selling tickets to the Zombie Apocalypse.

 

[orion949]

I don't have any adopted nationality, nor do I take any offense at the notion that I'm not a real American. Nationalism is bullshit. Borders are bullshit. I feel just as much obligation toward a Japanese person as I do toward an American or a Nigerian or an Ecuadorian. They're all human beings.

Damn. At first, I thought you were just one of those poor misguided fools out there but after reading this, I have come to realize, you are actually a genuine clueless fucktard living in fantasy land.

Please, go and try to illegally penetrate the Nigerian or Ecuadorian "bullshit borders" that you don't acknowledge and see what kind of a welcome party your Nigerian and Ecuadorian brothers have in store for your retarded ass!

Your good "human" brothers guarding the borders in Nigeria and Ecuador would give you the much needed education of your fucking lifetime.

 

[cudacuf]

The United States has the most guns per capita than any other country. There are like 88 guns per 100 people. But, the US is only about 28th in violent crimes that a gun was used. Every year, cars kill about 3x as many people in the US than guns. It just gets sensationalized when something does happen.

I think there would be less if people were actually allowed to protect themselves. You don't hear about shooting in Pearl River, MS. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting

Basically the same thing that happened at Sandy Hook, except the Asst Principle walked out to his car and got his .45 and finished it before the shooter could harm any more students.

Even more recently, the shooting at the Clackamas Town Center in Oregon was stopped by a civilian that pulled out his weapon and didn't even fire. He drew down on the shooter, then the shooter took his own life. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clackamas_Town_Center_shooting

Our forefathers believed that the people of the United States should be as well armed as the Army in order to keep any tyrannical governments in check. They didn't feel like the 2nd Amendment was a law that needed to be written. They didn't even want to create a Bill of Rights. They thought it was just common sense.

The police force aren't protectors, they are enforcers. Law Enforcement. Not saying they won't do their best to make sure bad things don't happen to people, but it's not really their job. They can't be everywhere, all the time. There are millions of responsible gun owners in the US that would end horrific things like the Sandy Hook shooting, if they were allowed to. The government is trying to unarm our society because they want us to need them to protect us.

 

[SiegeTank]

I hate to sound like an asshole but they're praising one teacher as a "hero" because she herded her class into a closet and then huddled with them, apparently putting her body between the kids and the shooter. So evidently the shooter killed her and THEN killed her students.

In my mind it would have been more heroic to have had access to a firearm and used it to kill the crazy mofo, like in the cases mentioned above.

Not that it was her fault since I doubt a teacher in Connecticut can legally have a gun in the classroom.

 

[cudacuf]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epZod2qyyN4"]How to stop a massacre (PG-13 edition with improved sound effects) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[twizzops]

The thing is you can go on youtube and find hours and hours of surveillance footage of robberies that are prevented because of armed clerks or random armed citizen. You will never hear about these stories unless it's on your local news if the event happened in your neighborhood. I am sure some times a good armed citizen is shot trying to stop a crime, but most of the time, it's the criminal.

These mass shootings always ALWAYS happen where guns are ILLEGAL to carry, like schools, where there's no one that can stop an armed criminal till he runs out of bullets or when the police finally arrive. By then it's always too late the the massacre is done.

I believe in the right to protect yourself wherever you go, but I also believe in the right to personal property. I believe the owner of the store/building/location has every right to prohibit guns, I just try to not go there if I can help it.

Also, not to get too off topic, but if the war on drugs finally ended and it was legalized I believe most of the violent crime would end. You would still have some crime, but if you can go to the grocery store/pharmacy and pick up some locally grown weed the drug wars would no longer be profitable and would ultimately end much of the violence. (PS never smoked weed or tobacco, but I believe in the right to live your life how you wish in the US).

 

[kirbanmanaburn]

Well, as for Ecuador and Nigeria -- I spend a lot of time in those countries. (Family in Ecuador and work takes me to Nigeria). I'm not sure what exactly you're getting at there, but I've never had any hassle from my 'brothers' in either country. I speak their languages (and in Nigeria, they speak mine), and I get along just great with pretty much everyone I meet.

I'm not raceless, nationless or genderless. I'm an upper middle class white male from America. There's no getting around it. But I do hope for a world in which the way people interact with each other has nothing to do with race, nation or class. People is people. That's all that matters.

And JJ -- boy, have you got me pegged wrong. I'm a habitual iconoclast. I basically can't work for the same institution for more than a year, because I always break every rule and piss off every boss. I'm a pretty bad candidate for any kind of brainwashing, and I'd probably get kicked out Al Qaeda camp within a month. The only reason my current bosses don't hate me is that I work out of the office, so they don't have to deal with me. And in fact, some of them still hate me a lot. So I'll take the charge of habitual shit-stirrer, naive idealist, etc. But brainwashing candidate's off the mark.

And as far as the 'land of the rising sun' stuff goes -- you do realize that flag is a symbol universally hated by anyone who's left of center in Japan, right? And you do realize that -- officially -- Japan has no flag and no anthem, because they were abolished after WWII (in order to try to avoid a return to the kind of nationalism that led the country to war). The reason you all think of the Rising Sun as Japan's 'official' flag is that the rest of the world can't get their head wrapped around the notion of a flagless nation. Within Japan, it's only people on the political right who can so much as tolerate the notion of a national flag or national anthem.

 

[JimJohnson]

Well, as for Ecuador and Nigeria -- I spend a lot of time in those countries. (Family in Ecuador and work takes me to Nigeria). I'm not sure what exactly you're getting at there, but I've never had any hassle from my 'brothers' in either country. I speak their languages (and in Nigeria, they speak mine), and I get along just great with pretty much everyone I meet.

I'm not raceless, nationless or genderless. I'm an upper middle class white male from America. There's no getting around it. But I do hope for a world in which the way people interact with each other has nothing to do with race, nation or class. People is people. That's all that matters.

And JJ -- boy, have you got me pegged wrong. I'm a habitual iconoclast. I basically can't work for the same institution for more than a year, because I always break every rule and piss off every boss. I'm a pretty bad candidate for any kind of brainwashing, and I'd probably get kicked out Al Qaeda camp within a month. The only reason my current bosses don't hate me is that I work out of the office, so they don't have to deal with me. And in fact, some of them still hate me a lot. So I'll take the charge of habitual shit-stirrer, naive idealist, etc. But brainwashing candidate's off the mark.

Maybe memory fails but did you not have issues on a Subway/Bus or something with some black people? Yet you go to 3rd world country with not even as much as snide remarks.

Maybe your demeanor shows and civility doesn't suite you. I really have no clue. As for what makes you think you are the ones they would not target. Could read off as a check list for why they would.

Anyways a mod should break this topic off from Alexandras post. She did have a good thread going.

 

[kirbanmanaburn]

I hate New York City. My discomfort with that place is probably on display when I'm there. In Abuja or Enugu, I'm fine. Same goes for Riobamba. You don't have to understand it; I'm guessing your experience in developing countries is pretty slim. Orion's, on the other hand, while more extensive, is military. When you walk around with an assault rifle and a military mandate to kill people when it's deemed necessary, the natives aren't exactly going to act natural.

I didn't derail this. Fauxshizle did by going all ad hominem nutso on my gun control comment. If a mod wants to create a separate thread for the conservative majority of this board to hurl insults at the lefty, have at it. Coming right off an election loss that makes clear your demographic is slim and shrinking, I'm pretty well insulated from your abuse.

Otherwise, y'all can just learn to let liberals be liberals without frothing at the mouth about it.

 

[cudacuf]

One of my best friends is from Nigeria and he has a vastly different view of the country.

 

[JimJohnson]

I hate New York City. My discomfort with that place is probably on display when I'm there. In Abuja or Enugu, I'm fine. Same goes for Riobamba. You don't have to understand it; I'm guessing your experience in developing countries is pretty slim. Orion's, on the other hand, while more extensive, is military. When you walk around with an assault rifle and a military mandate to kill people when it's deemed necessary, the natives aren't exactly going to act natural.

I didn't derail this. Fauxshizle did by going all ad hominem nutso on my gun control comment. If a mod wants to create a separate thread for the conservative majority of this board to hurl insults at the lefty, have at it. Coming right off an election loss that makes clear your demographic is slim and shrinking, I'm pretty well insulated from your abuse.

Otherwise, y'all can just learn to let liberals be liberals without frothing at the mouth about it.

Difference from liberals and people who do not feel they belong in our Country. To claim liberal american you would actually have to act like you like our country. For the good along with the bad.

The country is fucked, mostly from the government second from social media third from the news media.

But it's OURs, the only one we will ever have. For worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part. I love my country, how about you?


Edit - I never said you derailed it. But it took a sharp turn along the way.

 

[kirbanmanaburn]

If you replaced 'America' and 'our country' with 'earth' and 'our world,' I'd agree with almost everything you said. I simply don't care about nation. I care about people. And I think that caring about nation first is what leads to things like the Rwandan genocide. America should have intervened there, but we didn't because we had no 'national interest.' 800,000 dead because they weren't Americans. The UN Peacekeeping force was literally instructed to rescue all the expatriates and not evacuate any Rwandans. Rwandans would all rush to UN evacuation points to try to get out, the UN would turn them away, and then a mob would show up afterward and massacre the assembled Tutsis who the UN had left to die. The simple fact remains: if the Rwandans had been Americans, Swiss, French, etc. the UN would have evacuated them. They were killed because those nations didn't feel responsibility toward other countries.

Anyway, Obama proposed an assault weapons and high capacity magazine ban. He also said any and all gun purchases should require full background checks. I obviously support all of this and more. And I don't see how anyone can argue we need the right to own assault rifles, high capacity mags, or to be able to get guns without background checks.

 

[orion949]

I basically can't work for the same institution for more than a year, because I always break every rule and piss off every boss. I'm a pretty bad candidate for any kind of brainwashing, and I'd probably get kicked out Al Qaeda camp within a month. The only reason my current bosses don't hate me is that I work out of the office, so they don't have to deal with me. And in fact, some of them still hate me a lot.

Do you think this is something to be proud of? That your such an annoying little ant-establishment piss ant that you cant even hold down a consistent job due to your unprofessional conduct?

I bolded that last sentence there because even though I have never even met you I still hate you alot just like your poor bosses.

 

[twizzops]

If you replaced 'America' and 'our country' with 'earth' and 'our world,' I'd agree with almost everything you said. I simply don't care about nation. I care about people. And I think that caring about nation first is what leads to things like the Rwandan genocide. America should have intervened there, but we didn't because we had no 'national interest.' 800,000 dead because they weren't Americans. The UN Peacekeeping force was literally instructed to rescue all the expatriates and not evacuate any Rwandans. Rwandans would all rush to UN evacuation points to try to get out, the UN would turn them away, and then a mob would show up afterward and massacre the assembled Tutsis who the UN had left to die. The simple fact remains: if the Rwandans had been Americans, Swiss, French, etc. the UN would have evacuated them. They were killed because those nations didn't feel responsibility toward other countries.

Anyway, Obama proposed an assault weapons and high capacity magazine ban. He also said any and all gun purchases should require full background checks. I obviously support all of this and more. And I don't see how anyone can argue we need the right to own assault rifles, high capacity mags, or to be able to get guns without background checks.

Read what you wrote and then look at it from another point of view. You think that "other" countries should help or government should help. I'm here to tell you I never want to be in the situation. Why do you think the second amendment even exists. It's to keep something like that from ever happening.

The main difference between me and you would be it's my responsibility to keep myself and family safe. You obviously think that it's solely the government's responsibility.

You mentioned Rwanda, but that's just the tip of the iceberg of government atrocities on it's civilian population.

Bosnia - 1992 -1995 estimates of about 167,000 dead of the result of ethnic cleansing

Sudan - 1985 About 200,000 dead but could be as high as 400,000

East Timor - 1975 to 1999 200,000 dead out of 600,000 about 100,000 in the first year.

Rwanda - You mentioned but still 800,000 dead.

Armenia - 1 million Armenians and Assyrians dead between 1915 and 1923.

Cambodia - 1975 - 1979 2 million Cambodians dead

Germany and the Holocaust - 1933 through 1945 estimates of 11 to 17 million Jews and disabled killed.

Soviet Union - 1936 - 1950 Estimates of about 20 million dead

China - 1949 to 1987 The Mao Ze Dong empire killed an estimated 40 fucking million people (Eat your heart out Anita Dunn White House Communications Director [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2FVEe7wCzs"]White House Communications Director Anita Dunn Loves Mao Zedong - YouTube[/ame]

 

[orion949]

Hopefully someday way down the line flags and borders and all that nonsense won't matter anymore.

Also, just curious,

If your the ant-flag, anti-borders guy why is your avatar a DC flag?

 

[kirbanmanaburn]

For me (and a lot of people) the DC flag is a symbol of the city's vibrant anti-establishment culture, which was at its height in the Reagan years. And I do love DC. I also hate it, of course, but I'm not the first person to have a love/hate relationship with my hometown.

Also, keep in mind: DC votes 92+ percent Democrat in almost every election it holds (it's more consistently liberal than San Francisco), and our license plates literally say "Taxation Without Representation" (Dubya used to make his limo driver take the plates off) because we do not have a Congressman or Senator, yet we pay taxes. Why? Because that would tip the balance in favor of Democrats nationally, and in American realpolitik, that's unthinkable.

So I, like other DC residents, grew up disenfranchised in a very real way.

I don't have any trouble holding a job. I'm not unemployed. I just leave jobs a lot because the bosses always blow smoke up my ass on the way in about how they want to do things the right way, the moral way, etc. Once you get in, you find out that -- just like other jobs -- it's all about doing what the boss wants, protecting institutional interests at all costs, etc. Independent thinking is usually frowned upon (though there are always exceptions, and those are the people you try to cultivate relationships with).

Anybody who thinks that the lesson to be taken from Bosnia and Rwanda and the Armenian genocide (I happen to be of Armenian heritage) is that governments can't be trusted to protect their people is really, really understudied on those issues. Rwanda occurred after the president's plane was shot down and anarchy ensued. It was the FAILURE of first-world governments to intervene which allowed it. Hence Bill Clinton's tearful (and disingenuous, in my opinion) apology after the fact. And Rwanda is the strongest example of what happens when people of different nations and ethnicities do not feel responsible toward one another. Life went on as usual in the US while 800,000 people died. If those 800,000 people had been American (or Canadian, or French, or British) the killing would have been stopped very early on by an international intervention.

And the same issues persist in Darfur today. You don't have to be a genius to know that a close look at Africa reveals a lot of tough truths about how willfully ignorant we choose to remain about much of the world's condition. Whether you get to own a gun or not seems very petty indeed in the face of wholesale slaughter in the Congo or mass starvation in North Korea.

Edit -- Orion, you may hate me, but God forbid if you ever get injured on a tour and the VA fucks around with your benefits, you know damn well that you'd find yourself turning to a crusading liberal attorney (or journalist) like myself to try to get what's yours. Among the things I DO like about America is that it's full of all types. So I humbly suggest you dial back your anti-liberal mania, lest you find yourself having a serious identity crisis when you one day make friends with someone who has values like mine. We're out there, and though we may not agree with people like you, we often find ourselves in the position of fighting to make sure you're treated fairly.

 

[kirbanmanaburn]

But seriously: I'm with JJ on the re-rail. You all can take any final potshots you want, but if you want to continue to prod the resident liberal like a lab specimen, just send me a Skype IM. I'm glad to keep debating my incomprehensible belief system, but let's get this back on track:

Assault weapon + high capacity mag ban. Mandatory background check on all gun purchases. That's what Obama called for. Thoughts?

 

[htw]

You always start the actual attacks, but can't seem to see it, or something. Personally, I would appreciate it if you MIGHT consider, possibly, perhaps... closing out your arguments for OR against any subject, with only your arguments for that stand - and without attacking the opposing view, if with nothing else than a closing 'potshot'.

This is not a personal attack, just an observation. You may insult me to whatever extent it takes to make yourself feel better if you wish, but it will not affect me in the least. I hope you will just take it as it's meant.

htw