Verizon & Other Complaints

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I only held what my MOS required, which was Secret, so I doubt that's high enough if he has some good details on non-public foiled terrorist attacks. Secret seems to be given out like candy in the Army. At least it was anyways, I'm not so sure any more after the Pfc. Manning incident.

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All Classified information is on a need to know basis. A secret clearance being given to a majority of trust-worthy soldiers doesn't make it a candy handout. Its not the clearance that needs to be regulated so much as the information that it governs. If JPAS can be accessed and verified to show a person/soldier has a clearance then information can be provided...as needed. Much like me as a transporter have access to classified information that PETE probably has no reason to have access to, without instruction from senior leaders I'm simply not going share that information. But with an open invitation to visit his work I'm still doubtful that the information would be made available to me without me having a "need" to know as opposed to a desire to know. But if the clearance is all I need, I'd be willing to get some insight to an otherwise cloudy area.

Often times I find civilians/soldiers jumping to conclusions on the way business is handled by our government. Specifically in the Army, the lower enlisted enjoy having a day of dragging their boots talking about how lazy those senior to them are. Most of the time it is because they lack the knowledge of what goes on behind the scenes. As an NCO they must perform their jobs, telling you the details of that job is optional unless you are involved. If you are required to go give a safety briefing prior to a flight/train/bus departure to the persons that will be attending said transport and your NCO is never there. Perhaps it is because they are occupied doing something else equally important to the success of the mission. On the same note Soldiers will complain when they are being Micro-Managed by their senior leaders. So what I've come to figure is that it doesn't matter what you do. You can't please everyone. This goes from as far down as dirt floor poor and on up to Soldiers, Everyday Workers, Victims of Terrorism (Directly or indirectly), Rich CEOs and so forth and so on.

Can't please everyone, sometimes its good to take into consideration the way others feel to improve a situation. Sometimes you have to quit listening to people because what they ask for is total shenanigans. Sometimes doing what you know is right in order to support the greater good takes on a negative backlash. But the end result is what is important. Like in this case, possibly saving lives.

I agree on back with previous posters in regards to the private sectors collecting information about you. I can google my name and find myself on social media, forums, and other various websites. Half the time the information we our-selfs input into the computer and transmit via the internet goes onto webpages we personally approve (Via an agreement that you clicked "I Agree" on without reading. Now there are 50000 photo's of you and your family. I can see your ages and your names and where around you live and based on information you yourself put onto the internet people know a lot more about you than some data mining phone chaining charts could provide. In fact, I'm willing to bet that cross referencing data on "possible hits" for the persons found to possibly be guildy is likely found on social media sites. I mean...most people post shit about themselves on that, and who better to get information from than the person themselves? Social media sites are the one your allowing to collect your information, but your concerned with what the government is going to do with a phone number? I'm sure your facebook phone numbers and family members you've shared/friended have been uploaded into Intellus a long time ago and is now easily available to anyone who's willing to pay a small premium to access your personal phone numbers, address/previous address, known alias's, known siblings. Lemme get the address and google maps your house and go to street view and see if the photo was recently taken and what kinda vehicle you drive....whats the license plate number. when your tags expire, any personal affects in the yard/vehicles around you that tell me about how you live. What about your neighbors, lets check them out too.

Information is available at everyone's finger tips. I personally think the government is our last concern. I'm more worried how much sleep I'm about to get before I start unloading rail cars in the morning than I am about someone looking at two phone numbers talking for a specified length of time during a specific time of the day.

Don't give me that "its the way you think thats causing them to blah blah blah"

Has nothing to with the way I think. It has to do with what shit our government is willing to take from it's populous in order to mitigate potential losses in the future. Just because you don't know about foiled attacks doesn't mean it didn't happen. Also, just because something does actually happen doesn't mean they didn't try.

Far as all the fancy gear...The military purchases based on the lowest bidder. So just remember the guys that defend your freedoms are running around with cheap gear, cheap vehicles, cheap weapons in comparison to some of the things we could have if the money wasn't an issue. So for all those that point the finger. Soldiers getting paid crap considering what we do. Constant budget cut issues causing us to take a hit on the inflation. Civilian sectors flourish while we take the back seat.

Bleh, I'm tired of typing. Join the military, write your congressman, run for president, put yourself in a position to make a change, to decide on whats more important. civil liberties...or the lives of the men and women of our country? people always see the bad and they ride that train until its out of coal. The good is gone almost the same moment it is founded.
 
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You're right, it is also need to know. I was just making a point that information is classified and requires proper access to see it.

As to why you don't see success stories in the news: When information is released there is more to be gleaned than what is on the surface. If I show you a satellite image of your car, you can determine more than it is a picture of your car. You can tell viewing angles, camera type, clarity, quality, possible what time it was over your car, which could then lead to its orbit track. And with that information, you could cheat the system. Same thing goes for anything that is released, and why you don't get to see as much as you want to. Tradecraft and methods are protected even higher than other information because of how important it is. Bad guys eventually figure it out when they get busted over and over and they adapt. Then the cycle repeats of new methods to detect and new methods to counter.

I've worked the counterintelligence and humint problem set for about 5 years. Beyond that, I cant really get into specifics. That is why I have a decent knowledge of the rules and regulations and am familiar with some of the systems. Misuse of information isnt tolerated and frankly there isnt enough time to just screw around on anything other than the mission.

Everything in intelligence is compartmentalized (it was more open after 9/11 for awhile, then we had wikileaks and others and it tightened up), and for good reason. You can have your corruption or personal vendettas like IRS or police on a localized scale. You wont have it in the intel world on a national level because the agencies that are collecting it arent ones that do anything to US people. Department of Defense and CIA target primarily outside the country and only touch US if theres communications to US nationals or some sort of cyber attack. FBI work at a federal level, but they arent just searching info for the hell of it. But all of them are still either using only what they can collect themselves or asking the information holder for permission to view certain things. Agencies dont allow wholesale access to their information. Trying to get anything at all can be like pulling teeth sometimes.

Bottom line is the people that could do something to hurt you with the information dont get access to it and the people with access to it can't directly hurt you. Any information that is being collected is truly for your protection and the country's protection.
 
re: Verizon & Other Complaints

1) I'm not on Facebook.

2) I already Google mapped my house. The picture is outdated and there is no street view of it either. I live in the boonies. Hooray for boonies.

3) Soldiers fighting tribal cave dwellers on the other side of the world aren't protecting my freedoms or anyone else's freedoms. That's the biggest lie that is thrown around these days. They're protecting the interests of our government and the resources that they are drooling over. If they actually protected freedoms, they'd be stateside fighting the government for taking away so many freedoms and crapping all over the constitution but they're not, so whatever.

Funny that'd your bring up freedoms though considering there isn't a single freedom that we, as Americans, are allowed to have by our honest government. All of our 'freedoms' have limits, restrictions, rules, regulations, fees, fines, background checks and the list goes on and on and on.

I hardly consider that to be anything even remotely close to being free. But my definition of free might differ from your definition of free. /shrug


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Check your Verizon contract. Call them and ask if being monitored illegally is a breach on their end. Drop their service and go get a tracphone. Best way to deal with it is to stop using the service.

WoW JJ you liked this? I thought we agreed to disagree a very long time ago?

FUCK TracPhone and all of its "no contract" subsidiaries that are based and owned by a Mexican Tycoon. Was with Net10 (also TracPhone) for 2 years, auto billed, unlimited phone/text/data...., THEY had a database error, accidentally turned off my phone, and to fix it, they suggested THAT I GO BUY A NEW sim card and prepaid-time card. B/C they could Not just simply apologize and turn my phone back on, they are barely able to converse in english, and ALL of thier customer support is HELPLESS, all the way up the chain of command. They said they'd give me 2 months free.....if I COULD GO BUY A PREPAID TIME CARD to re-activate my phone. Last thing i said to the Net10 peeps after 3 weeks of calling and 30+ hours on hold and with customer service was .....FUCK YOU CHUPACABRA RAPING BITCHES>....Save yerself a headache and a murder plot.

After LONG hours of comparing and looking.....

https://www.gosmartmobile.com/

USA owned, in California, talked to awesome chick, and runs off of T-Mobile's network. Unlimited Talk/text/and 2G/3G data for $35 a month. Bring yer own phone....
 
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re: Verizon & Other Complaints

Pete,

You say terrorists adapt to situations eventually, which I agree with.

Wasn't the major issue in Iraq and Afghanistan that terrorists communicated through messengers, secret letters and 100% off the grid once they discovered their emails and phones were tapped? It would seem that anyone actually plotting something big would do the same, right?

Take, for example, the guys who were planning to attack Russia. They were just in the news a few days ago. They lived in an apartment, no wireless devices, no outside contact and only left the house for food. The only reason these guys were unsuccessful in their attack was one made a mistake and set off a small explosion inside of his apartment which led a neighbor to phone the police.

How exactly is taking call logs, all internet data and credit card data of every single American going to stop an underground cell that uses zero technology and lives under the radar? Hell it couldn't even stop two young adults from bombing a Marathon even after the government was warned about them.

This whole 'it is for your own protection' scam sounds a lot like the gun control debate in regards to infringing on the rights of millions of Americans because of criminals who won't abide by the normals rules anyways.

We've wasted trillions of dollars and thousands of lives fighting cave dwellers with ak-47s, crude IEDs and rocks and there is still no sign that they're going to quit. Our government has all the technology in the world at its fingertips but cave dwelling tribal men are still fighting us after 12 years and they're still successfully killing soldiers and executing bombings around the world.

Technology isn't going to win this war or get them to stop attacking people. If the Boston event is any indication of the level of intelligence that our government has, then we're in some seriously deep shit when the big boys come to play.

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Not every example will require call logs or email to catch a person. Your example would have required HUMINT (aka spies/sources). You would need to find a person in the know, or a person that knows a person in the know somewhere down the line and have them try to get you information. It is very labor and time intensive to develop sources. You may work a source for years and get 1 piece of useful intel. A source handler can only work so many sources and it can be expensive. But it is the oldest type of intel and one that can answer the question that no other type of intel can answer: How and why? Why are they talking to this person? Why are they targeting this place? How are they going to do it?

You (and most americans) get wrapped around the axle focusing on militant terrorists as to why we need intelligence. Terrorists are just a tiny sliver. We stop countless attacks on infrastructure and networks daily. Espionage and intrusions happen behind the scenes all the time. Terrorists blowing something up or being arrested is just something that cant be hidden so you see it more often. Look at your antivirus program to see a bunch of viruses that are trying to steal your info or take down a network.

Datamining is just 1 tool in the toolbox and it is a very successful tool when it is right for the job. But just like I am not going to use a chainsaw to put a screw in, I am not going to use datamined info to stop a cavedweller. I will use a different tool for that. Technology alone will not win a war, but when the bad guys are using technology, you better use what you have to stop theirs or they will make you blind, deaf, and dumb at their choosing.
 
Can't please everyone, sometimes its good to take into consideration the way others feel to improve a situation. Sometimes you have to quit listening to people because what they ask for is total shenanigans. Sometimes doing what you know is right in order to support the greater good takes on a negative backlash. But the end result is what is important. Like in this case, possibly saving lives.

Horseshit, this data mining has no intention of saving lives....and has nothing to do with "protecting you". This is only the tiny whisper of the amount of raw data they collect...the real number is.......FUCKING EVERYTHING....Go to the Utah Desert...Data like that is to provide the real owners of our nation (Bilderburg Group) with whatever data they need.

Bilderberg Conferences: Secret lobbying for Anti-Democratic United States of Europe by transatlantic Power Elite


Has nothing to with the way I think. It has to do with what shit our government is willing to take from it's populous in order to mitigate potential losses in the future.

Really? take from the populous, to mitigate potential losses...?? For whom?...ohh you mean lives....nope, only losses that are of any concern are commodities.

"Just because you don't know about foiled attacks doesn't mean it didn't happen"

WTF...wow that's being open-mouth spoon-fed any story put on the table.
Your saying "I'm ready to accept your version, regardless"

Use reason and logic to see the ever-present holes and twists in every "factoid" you are presented with...you may just find the truth yet. Because its your tolerance of the ever-tightening grip around everyone's neck that makes it harder to break free.

This is NO conspiracy, its fucking Geo-political Economics. Info is everywhere....Business Weekly, Wired, ..you name it, they have all laid it out in front of our faces...You never had real freedom, not for the last 100 years....
 
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A couple things I stumbled across. The SOCnet thread is especially interesting since many of those guys are intel or have worked as special operators. The reddit one is chilling and I hope that Alexandra reads it. There are reasons to fear the government having this kind of power.

161719 comments on I believe the government should be allowed to view my e-mails, tap my phone calls, and view my web history for national security concerns. CMV

Top secret court order requiring Verizon to hand over all call data... - SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network
 
The PRISM combod with that logo is just a collection management system that you request what you want collected then it gets tasked out and tracked. Unless they stole the trademark and logo, then the media has the wrong name of the program.

Also, everything has been monitored for a very long time and yet nobody here has gone to jail nor had the black helicopters swoop down on you. Because that isnt how it works. It would be difficult to actually know how it works if you dont actually do it, due to classifications, but maybe these leaks will show you that the government isnt abusing the info it has.

The information that gets ingested mostly stays in house of whatever organization collects it and nobody else gets it without permission. Or it goes into a shared database and you get a webapp interface to get some of the data. It isnt getting shared with police or other state/local agencies unless they would need to coordinate something to catch a bad guy. And it isnt getting shared to politicians in any form other than POTUS/VPOTUS/SECDEF briefing. Those briefings are kept to bare minimum info since time is important and small detail isnt required for most things. Typically, nobody but the subject matter expert analyst(s) working the problem set will ever even see the direct information.

Supposing you do get into the databases, you get tracked when you are in the system so they can see all the user clicks and entries. The audit logs show pretty much everything. People lose their jobs if there are inconsistencies. Even at the county and state levels there is auditing for access to the departments of justice to see criminal records. You cant just go looking up exes or friends.

The biggest flaw here is... IF it was not so wrong.. Why the fuck do they need to threaten punishment and use secret panels too keep it from public knowledge.

If you have to hide something from the public, do not try to make it sound like its nothing big.. You are hiding it from the public for a reason.

AGAIN if this was not a big deal.. It would have been blown up big public knowledge in 2007...

Now for those black choppers... Again when people are threatened that it is national security and they will be punished the full weight of the law... NO ONE SPEAKS OUT. If you do not get the fact that the person with all the power is also the punishing party with no independent oversight. You are one of the stupidest smart people I know.
 
Check your Verizon contract. Call them and ask if being monitored illegally is a breach on their end. Drop their service and go get a tracphone. Best way to deal with it is to stop using the service.

WoW JJ you liked this? I thought we agreed to disagree a very long time ago?

FUCK TracPhone and all of its "no contract" subsidiaries that are based and owned by a Mexican Tycoon. Was with Net10 (also TracPhone) for 2 years, auto billed, unlimited phone/text/data...., THEY had a database error, accidentally turned off my phone, and to fix it, they suggested THAT I GO BUY A NEW sim card and prepaid-time card. B/C they could Not just simply apologize and turn my phone back on, they are barely able to converse in english, and ALL of thier customer support is HELPLESS, all the way up the chain of command. They said they'd give me 2 months free.....if I COULD GO BUY A PREPAID TIME CARD to re-activate my phone. Last thing i said to the Net10 peeps after 3 weeks of calling and 30+ hours on hold and with customer service was .....FUCK YOU CHUPACABRA RAPING BITCHES>....Save yerself a headache and a murder plot.

After LONG hours of comparing and looking.....

https://www.gosmartmobile.com/

USA owned, in California, talked to awesome chick, and runs off of T-Mobile's network. Unlimited Talk/text/and 2G/3G data for $35 a month. Bring yer own phone....

If you think T-Mobile does not have the same order verizon does to hand over data... You are well dumb.

But if you really want off Verizon ATT. You should go to this BYOP carrier.

I have been with them for the last 8-10 months. It can also generate some extra cash to pay for the phone itself.
 
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The biggest flaw here is... IF it was not so wrong.. Why the fuck do they need to threaten punishment and use secret panels too keep it from public knowledge.

If you have to hide something from the public, do not try to make it sound like its nothing big.. You are hiding it from the public for a reason.

AGAIN if this was not a big deal.. It would have been blown up big public knowledge in 2007...

Now for those black choppers... Again when people are threatened that it is national security and they will be punished the full weight of the law... NO ONE SPEAKS OUT. If you do not get the fact that the person with all the power is also the punishing party with no independent oversight. You are one of the stupidest smart people I know.

Again: letting people know how you're monitoring will change their habits so they avoid monitoring, thus defeating the purpose. Even in standard criminal cases, taps and monitoring are secret.

You keep crying that big bad government is coming after innocent Americans.. so let's get a running list of all the innocent US citizens punished "under the full weight of the law" that came out of any monitoring. Just one will do. Just a single name of any US citizen sitting in prison on terror charges that didnt do it. Be a conspiracy nutjob all you want, but just because you have a warped sense of reality doesn't make it true.
 
The biggest flaw here is... IF it was not so wrong.. Why the fuck do they need to threaten punishment and use secret panels too keep it from public knowledge.

If you have to hide something from the public, do not try to make it sound like its nothing big.. You are hiding it from the public for a reason.

AGAIN if this was not a big deal.. It would have been blown up big public knowledge in 2007...

Now for those black choppers... Again when people are threatened that it is national security and they will be punished the full weight of the law... NO ONE SPEAKS OUT. If you do not get the fact that the person with all the power is also the punishing party with no independent oversight. You are one of the stupidest smart people I know.

Again: letting people know how you're monitoring will change their habits so they avoid monitoring, thus defeating the purpose. Even in standard criminal cases, taps and monitoring are secret.

You keep crying that big bad government is coming after innocent Americans.. so let's get a running list of all the innocent US citizens punished "under the full weight of the law" that came out of any monitoring. Just one will do. Just a single name of any US citizen sitting in prison on terror charges that didnt do it. Be a conspiracy nutjob all you want, but just because you have a warped sense of reality doesn't make it true.

We initially had 3 parties of government so that they had checks and balances. We no longer have this.

Name, give me a few I will go find it. Based on a facebook post he was held without cause. FBI and Secret Service showed up at his house.

Brandon Ruab

I won't be like you and call out a sense of reality as you are standing up for what you think is correct. In order for me to win this argument would mean for you to turn against your job and country.

You probably think it is ok for the Government to just print more fake money for us to hide our debt. The service does one thing. Brainwashes you. If it doesn't you get out before it does. This is a GOOD THING btw. Because what you guys do you need to believe in your bones you are doing the right thing. Otherwise you might not be able to do some of the hard things asked of soldiers.
 
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The case you pointed out just proved my point. There IS a checks and balance. The judge dismissed the case before it started because it was total crap. That guy didn't go to prison and has every right to sue and hopefully win.

The checks and balance in this datamining stuff is that the people holding the information arent the ones that can do anything to you and the ones that can do something to you dont have access to the databases.

Just because I am military doesn't make me not question our government. I am also a taxpayer and a citizen and I have the same expectations as any other. Our debt crisis and budgeting issues is unacceptable and yet we don't have a choice in the matter because there are 2 parties and they both tow the line. Since at least 2000, the senate and congress have been complete jokes and a waste of all of our time. I am for term limits, publicly financed campaigns, and total transparency of the entire political process. Special interests and lack of term limits have corrupted the system that is now about getting reelected instead of passing or updating meaningful laws. Having cronyism and secrecy for things that ought to be in the open only causes a lack of faith and sense of mistrust with the American public. But that doesnt have anything to do with the verizon incident.

One way or another, certain "private" information has to be collected to protect the networks they ride on. Without throwing on my conspiracy hat and joining in, if we dont protect communication and infrastructure then state sponsored cyber units and the random hacker will be able to much more effectively target and breach our systems. Maybe they should let that happen a few times to make the point. Maybe that will be what happens as an outcome of this verizon event. A few power grids going down or an entire coast goes without internet for a couple days would have people up in arms that the government isnt protecting us well enough. All it takes is one Stuxnet, Flame or Duqu slipping onto an important network and bad things happen. Buckshot Yankee was a single incident 5 years ago that completely changed how we transmit data to and from networks in the intel world for just that reason. All it took was once.
 
The case you pointed out just proved my point. There IS a checks and balance. The judge dismissed the case before it started because it was total crap. That guy didn't go to prison and has every right to sue and hopefully win.

The checks and balance in this datamining stuff is that the people holding the information arent the ones that can do anything to you and the ones that can do something to you dont have access to the databases.

Just because I am military doesn't make me not question our government. I am also a taxpayer and a citizen and I have the same expectations as any other. Our debt crisis and budgeting issues is unacceptable and yet we don't have a choice in the matter because there are 2 parties and they both tow the line. Since at least 2000, the senate and congress have been complete jokes and a waste of all of our time. I am for term limits, publicly financed campaigns, and total transparency of the entire political process. Special interests and lack of term limits have corrupted the system that is now about getting reelected instead of passing or updating meaningful laws. Having cronyism and secrecy for things that ought to be in the open only causes a lack of faith and sense of mistrust with the American public. But that doesnt have anything to do with the verizon incident.

One way or another, certain "private" information has to be collected to protect the networks they ride on. Without throwing on my conspiracy hat and joining in, if we dont protect communication and infrastructure then state sponsored cyber units and the random hacker will be able to much more effectively target and breach our systems. Maybe they should let that happen a few times to make the point. Maybe that will be what happens as an outcome of this verizon event. A few power grids going down or an entire coast goes without internet for a couple days would have people up in arms that the government isnt protecting us well enough. All it takes is one Stuxnet, Flame or Duqu slipping onto an important network and bad things happen. Buckshot Yankee was a single incident 5 years ago that completely changed how we transmit data to and from networks in the intel world for just that reason. All it took was once.

Due Process was not followed, rights get restored AFTER the fact. That must make it ok. long as at some point we figure out he wasn't really bad.

Those special interest groups you speak of. They get people into positions so they can do things they want for them.. You really think they do not have people in the right places already giving them what they want to know?
 
You are trying to put words into my mouth. I didnt say due process was followed nor that they were right to arrest him. Clearly it was a total screw up and the agent in charge was hopefully reprimanded harshly or fired. The good part I was pointing out was that it didn't slip through the cracks as an injustice and the judge saw that and said gtfo of my court room with this bs. The judicial branch checked the executive branch as intended.

I have no idea what that second word salad sentence is supposed to mean, but I am cool with you firing everyone in Washington DC and holding elections tomorrow with none of them eligible to run.

The fact is that the NSA has arrested 0 people using datamined info because they do not have arresting authority.
 
Due Process was not followed, rights get restored AFTER the fact. That must make it ok. long as at some point we figure out he wasn't really bad.

This is everything. I hate to go Tom Cruise on you, but this is some Minority Report shit. While I understand and agree to an extent that intelligence should be left "secret" and also agree that this datamining will result in some beneficial ends, the fact is we as a nation are giving up parts of ourself due to a self made "evil" in the world.

If this administration really wanted to "protect" the population from attacks, he would completely remove all US forward deployments to the Middle East. Fuck Israel. They're on their own. That region has been fighting for 2000+ years. How the fuck do we think we're going to just come in and add stability to the area? Fuck stability. Let them nuke the fuck out of each other. No skin off my nuts.

The US should completely remove all foreign aid from everywhere. Focus on home. Learn to safely and efficiently extract oil from our shales and allow the building of newer, more efficient refineries. I don't think there has been a refinery built in the US since late 70's or early 80's due to the heavy regulations. So, we keep using refineries that run at 40-60% efficiency.

I absolutely shifted the conversation from Verizon to Oil and Money, because that's really what is at the root of the problem.
 
Word @ terrible middle east policies. With the exception of getting bin laden (revenge), our middle east policies were pretty much 100% about oil or leasing land for forward bases. Darfur genocide? You got oil, bro? No? /goodluck. Over the last ~60 years we have not supported a rebellion that has panned out for more than a few years or we installed a ruthless dictator. But we dont learn our lessons I guess. I am hoping we are smart enough to stay out of Syria.

That said, it is actually China, Russia, and some misc groups as the primary driving factor for all the cyber datamining these days. It was all focused on Iraq and Afghanistan up until about 2008. Then Buckshot Yankee showed us we were vulnerable and stuxnet showed just how effective a virus could be on hardware. Now we have a hard on for cyber. Which is why we stood up a Cyber Command in 2010 and did a priority shift. Then china, south korea, north korea, et all stood up their own cyber commands and we enter this vicious cycle of staying in top position. North Korea cyber units (with their top of the line 1980s technology) are able to take down targets in south korea that have much better tech. A motivated China can do some nastiness, especially on an unprepared target. And for some reason we keep letting them take potshots on our network. We need to tell them we wont pay back any national debt if they keep it up. There is finally supposed to be a meeting to talk to them about it in the near future.
 
When we commit to making our country oil independent and that means drilling more from Alaska where there is more oil then the entire middle east ill agree we should stay out of the middle east. Until then oil is a National Interest and we should do anything and everything to make sure we can continue to import it. Controlling oil controls this country and its economy oil independence isn't about making money its about 5th world country's not being able to hold us hostage with oil.

Don't even get me started on OPEC.


With that said. A country like North Korea saying they want us dead they want to kill us. How are we suppose to leave them alone ? Should we just let mad men have nuclear bombs now days ? This country ignored hitler even after he killed millions. We do not need another example of that in history. The same goes for Iran. You deal with the problem now or you deal with it 20 years from now and it cost 20 times more and takes 3 times as long.

You guys keep saying oh we brought it on ourselves. That is bullshit. You're trying to justify the murder of innocent people women and children because you think this country brought it on ourselves.

They attack the innocent because they're incapable of attacking trained soldiers they're cowards who should be hunted down and shot and anyone who trains them should be hunted down and shot and anyone who supports them should be hunted down and shot.
 
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When we commit to making our country oil independent and that means drilling more from Alaska where there is more oil then the entire middle east ill agree we should stay out of the middle east. Until then oil is a National Interest and we should do anything and everything to make sure we can continue to import it. Controlling oil controls this country and its economy oil independence isn't about making money its about 5th world country's not being able to hold us hostage with oil.

Don't even get me started on OPEC.


With that said. A country like North Korea saying they want us dead they want to kill us. How are we suppose to leave them alone ? Should we just let mad men have nuclear bombs now days ? This country ignored hitler even after he killed millions. We do not need another example of that in history. The same goes for Iran. You deal with the problem now or you deal with it 20 years from now and it cost 20 times more and takes 3 times as long.

Simple fact is methane is way cheaper to produce and maintain. AND IT BURNS CLEAN. fuck oil. The problem is the oil companies do not want to lose a mad bank when other people go green. Being why we keep getting more regulations and less actual progression.

As for NK, they want us dead because we protect SK. We leave the borders next to them problem solved. If and when they do attack us. We ass fuck them and anyone that tries to help. Unless we are going to go on the OFFENSIVE. STAY THE FUCK OUT OF OTHER PEOPLES HOMES~! We have issues that we bring on ourselves trying to be the world police.
 
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