Verizon & Other Complaints

[Kkthnx]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22793851

:-O

 

[Alexandra]

BBC News - US 'orders Verizon to disclose millions of phone records'

:-O

I guess I could care less since I have nothing to hide, but if the information can be used to stop terrorist attacks, I guess it's a necessary evil to comb records.

 

[Rasmussenn]

I've nothing to hide, either. But that's not the point. Regardless of guilt or innocence, it's none of the govt's fucking business who I call, when I call them and how long I talk to them.

Where does it stop? What grounds to they have for reviewing my phone records? Last time I looked the Constitution (you remember that document that this administration is rapidly feeding to the shredder?) guaranteed me protection from illegal search and seizure. That protection means that any agency must first show PROBABLE CAUSE before they just access my private records

A couple of years back there was a big hoopla because it was reported that Apple had the GPS location services configured on the iPhone to 'Find my iPhone' and everyone was outraged that a private company could have that type of access. It was later explained that ALL cell phones have such capabilities, and the user can turn off the location services if they chose to.

Can I turn off the Obama Administration? Please? Where's the OFF switch for his invasion of my privacy?

 

[Rasmussenn]

Alex, regardless of 'National Security' claims or not, how is having your or my phone records going to stop terrorism? Do you have the phone number to Al Quida on speed dial? Does your mother? Brother? Aunt? Uncle?

So what do they need our records for?

Its invasion of privacy. And it's unconstitutional. But that means nothing to these people. The Constitution is just a hindrance to them.

 

[cudacuf]

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

-Ben Franklin

 

[JimJohnson]

BBC News - US 'orders Verizon to disclose millions of phone records'

:-O

I guess I could care less since I have nothing to hide, but if the information can be used to stop terrorist attacks, I guess it's a necessary evil to comb records.

You know how to stop terrorist attacks? Stop fucking with other countries because you want something they have.

When you have to justify something with a necessary evil... I really should not need to be done.

 

[JimJohnson]

Alex, regardless of 'National Security' claims or not, how is having your or my phone records going to stop terrorism? Do you have the phone number to Al Quida on speed dial? Does your mother? Brother? Aunt? Uncle?

So what do they need our records for?

Its invasion of privacy. And it's unconstitutional. But that means nothing to these people. The Constitution is just a hindrance to them.

What people don't see is this is basically saying we are guilty of a crime. They just need to find it so they can stop the outcome. Long as I do not commit any crimes I have nothing to worry about.. WRONG.

 

[devestator]

Personally I don't care if they simply have my records, as long as I don't find out there is some egg head sitting in a lab somewhere stalking me by monitoring my information directly without any cause to do so.

Most likely, just because they have the information doesn't mean they are using it exactly. It's probably some automated program that scans through the records looking for patterns or calls to identified contact points, things like that. If this is the case, and it's all that is being done with it, they aren't really invading your privacy by having the information. If that were true then all of the phone companies would also be invading your privacy by keeping the records in the first place.

 

[riot]

re: Verizon & Other Complaints

Jim is 100% right.

I find it funny how some people will allow the government 100% control over all aspect of their lives under the guise of 'protectin us from terrrists'.

Our faithful government failed to stop the Boston bombing even after Russia warned them and then, to put the icing on the cake, the useless hacks couldn't even find the kid after putting an entire city on lockdown. It took a civillian all of 5 minutes to find the kid hiding in his boat. But hell, it sure was nice seeing all that fancy equipment on parade, wasn't it?

Point being, if anyone wants to attack us they're going to be smart enough to avoid using cell phones and other forms of electronic communications.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Xparent Skyblue Tapatalk 2

 

[Rasmussenn]

Alex, regardless of 'National Security' claims or not, how is having your or my phone records going to stop terrorism? Do you have the phone number to Al Quida on speed dial? Does your mother? Brother? Aunt? Uncle?

So what do they need our records for?

Its invasion of privacy. And it's unconstitutional. But that means nothing to these people. The Constitution is just a hindrance to them.

What people don't see is this is basically saying we are guilty of a crime. They just need to find it so they can stop the outcome. Long as I do not commit any crimes I have nothing to worry about.. WRONG.

Oh I see it quite clearly. Hence my outrage.

 

[PeteSampras]

Arguing invasion of privacy against constitutional rights for datamining phonecall logs is silly when comparing it to original intent. You are reminiscing about the good ol' days and ignoring the fact that it isnt the same world. Electricity, internet, email, phonecalls, highways, railroads, airplanes, engines, metal ships, voice communication, etc didnt exist. White land owning males could vote, and the country was 1/6 of the size with an even smaller fraction of people that literally lived in daily danger of dying or having all their stuff taken away. Illegal search and seizure in 1776 was literally searching you/property and taking your stuff.

Flash forward to 2013. The reason the government is able to announce all these connections and information is precisely because it DOES datamine. You log everything, then if relevant info pops up, you check it out. Ie. Terrorist from Syria calls a number in Kentucky. You have historical records and can check out who they called and do a call chain. Live voice or even recorded monitoring requires at least a 1:1 ratio of people calling to people monitoring and usually requires an additional translator. There isnt enough time or money for that. Really, if you arent breaking the law (or suspected enough to have a warrant signed by a judge), or talking to someone who is breaking the law, you arent getting monitored.

So these 2 idiots blow up something at the marathon and FBI goes and snags all the historical data and looks like Captain Hindsight. Then everyone cries foul about: WHY DIDNT YOU GET THEM IF YOU KNEW?! The truth is they didnt know because nobody has time to monitor all that. Watching a couple highschoolers that popped up with a few phonecalls to Russia did enough to trigger a quick look, but nothing significant was found. But you dont want to let other bad guys know that. You show them you can track everything so they better not try it.

Back to the point; from an originalist constitutional standpoint: logging that a phonecall was made hasnt taken anything from you. Judges along the way have interpreted it as a seizure because the constitution severely needs updated and good luck getting congress to agree on anything. Those same judges will rule that if was done without a warrant in the US, then it isnt admissible in court anyway.

3rd party companies know everything about you. They know what you search for on the internet. Now THAT is scary. Talk about some inner demons. That info is sold to anyone and everyone, including governments and not just the US government and that is all fine because you willingly provided it and agreed to terms and conditions.

If you want to be ok with the government not collecting any data, then you have to be ok with many attacks on the US because there is no method to stop any attack without intelligence of some sort. At the same time, you should really be crying foul over all the private corporations that know absolutely everything about your daily life and sell that information wholesale.

To fear that somehow the government is going to repeat events leading to 1776 in today's society is naive. On a local scale you may have a few a few individual law enforcement that are doing the wrong thing, but to think that the military would crack down on the public against brothers and sisters is too much conspiracy for me. It's a volunteer force that values freedom and harbors as much disdain for politicians as the next guy. There is a reason the military and police are separate. One is supposed to protect the country from outsiders, and the other is supposed to protect the population from insiders. The military members and leaders arent robots (yet) and arent going to attack the US population. The police forces arent controlled by the federal government (the collectors of the intel). So youll be ok. Really.

EDIT: oh i forgot kkthx was brit. he's screwed. you americans are fine though.

 

[JimJohnson]

Arguing invasion of privacy against constitutional rights for datamining phonecall logs is silly when comparing it to original intent. You are reminiscing about the good ol' days and ignoring the fact that it isnt the same world. Electricity, internet, email, phonecalls, highways, railroads, airplanes, engines, metal ships, voice communication, etc didnt exist. White land owning males could vote, and the country was 1/6 of the size with an even smaller fraction of people that literally lived in daily danger of dying or having all their stuff taken away. Illegal search and seizure in 1776 was literally searching you/property and taking your stuff.

Flash forward to 2013. The reason the government is able to announce all these connections and information is precisely because it DOES datamine. You log everything, then if relevant info pops up, you check it out. Ie. Terrorist from Syria calls a number in Kentucky. You have historical records and can check out who they called and do a call chain. Live voice or even recorded monitoring requires at least a 1:1 ratio of people calling to people monitoring and usually requires an additional translator. There isnt enough time or money for that. Really, if you arent breaking the law (or suspected enough to have a warrant signed by a judge), or talking to someone who is breaking the law, you arent getting monitored.

So these 2 idiots blow up something at the marathon and FBI goes and snags all the historical data and looks like Captain Hindsight. Then everyone cries foul about: WHY DIDNT YOU GET THEM IF YOU KNEW?! The truth is they didnt know because nobody has time to monitor all that. Watching a couple highschoolers that popped up with a few phonecalls to Russia did enough to trigger a quick look, but nothing significant was found. But you dont want to let other bad guys know that. You show them you can track everything so they better not try it.

Back to the point; from an originalist constitutional standpoint: logging that a phonecall was made hasnt taken anything from you. Judges along the way have interpreted it as a seizure because the constitution severely needs updated and good luck getting congress to agree on anything. Those same judges will rule that if was done without a warrant in the US, then it isnt admissible in court anyway.

3rd party companies know everything about you. They know what you search for on the internet. Now THAT is scary. Talk about some inner demons. That info is sold to anyone and everyone, including governments and not just the US government and that is all fine because you willingly provided it and agreed to terms and conditions.

If you want to be ok with the government not collecting any data, then you have to be ok with many attacks on the US because there is no method to stop any attack without intelligence of some sort. At the same time, you should really be crying foul over all the private corporations that know absolutely everything about your daily life and sell that information wholesale.

To fear that somehow the government is going to repeat events leading to 1776 in today's society is naive. On a local scale you may have a few a few individual law enforcement that are doing the wrong thing, but to think that the military would crack down on the public against brothers and sisters is too much conspiracy for me. It's a volunteer force that values freedom and harbors as much disdain for politicians as the next guy. There is a reason the military and police are separate. One is supposed to protect the country from outsiders, and the other is supposed to protect the population from insiders. The military members and leaders arent robots (yet) and arent going to attack the US population. The police forces arent controlled by the federal government (the collectors of the intel). So youll be ok. Really.

EDIT: oh i forgot kkthx was brit. he's screwed. you americans are fine though.

The problem is the government has already used its powers to target and go after people. So why give them more power to go after people. In chasing ghosts that we created ourselves.

 

[Alexandra]

Eh I'm just not worked up over it *shrugs*.

The government has always had the power to do pretty much what they want, it's just now they are saying it, it's got us in a tizzy.

Honestly, root cause, starting wars with countries because they have oil. Thanks Bush. I do know that the units responsible for trying to control terrorism are under the gun to prevent attacks. They were all in a room and decided that having phone records allows them to figure out who's calling the middle east was a good idea. Do you think they care about Alexandra calling her mom in Idaho? No, not worried about it. They don't have the manpower or time to look at everyone's records. Hell I don't even have the time to look at my own. I guess I think there are bigger things to get worked up over

Unless your out there doing sit-ins or protesting, your not doing a damn thing either about it posting on a board.

 

[fauxshizle]

BBC News - US 'orders Verizon to disclose millions of phone records'

:-O

I guess I could care less since I have nothing to hide, but if the information can be used to stop terrorist attacks, I guess it's a necessary evil to comb records.

Alex, that kind of thinking is exactly why were going to shit ina Tilt-o-Whirl

 

[cudacuf]

It's funny that the government can find two dipshits in a haystack after they bombed Boston, but they can't determine who in government did this during Benghazi or did that with the IRS thing, or who ordered Fast and Furious guns to Mexico. They can determine with pinpoint accuracy things that citizens do, but they can't find their ass with both hands when someone in the government does something.

 

[Alexandra]

BBC News - US 'orders Verizon to disclose millions of phone records'

:-O

I guess I could care less since I have nothing to hide, but if the information can be used to stop terrorist attacks, I guess it's a necessary evil to comb records.

Alex, that kind of thinking is exactly why were going to shit ina Tilt-o-Whirl

And WTF are you doing about it? Honestly, WTF are any of you doing, are you at arms storming the state capital. It doesn't matter a goddamn what I think. If I'm not DOING anything, than my thinking has nothing to do with anything, so what if I'm not bothered. If those of you that ARE bothered are not doing anything, you are in my same fucking boat.

My brother is on this kick too, all his posts on FB aren't doing shit, so either step up or shut up.

Oh and...my fucking thinking didn't get us in any kind of tilt a whirl, it's the people that are doing all the talking and not doing any acting on it who's got us to this point.

Sorry, but really getting piss sick of all this talk. Honestly just damn fed up with all the talk talk talk and no fucking action . If things are so GD bad, do something.

Have a damn nice day! Yes, cussing made me feel better~

 

[PeteSampras]

Make no mistake, any oversight could be abused if unchecked and unregulated. The intelligence oversight and legal reviews that are attached to this kind of stuff are pretty comprehensive. Even when we are targeting legit terrorists we have to go through a bunch of lawyers. Hell, for dropping bombs at the end of Iraq fighting, we had to have SECDEF personal approval. And that is for known bad guys in foreign countries.

Collection against domestic is significantly more rigorous and has even more checks and review process. The goal shouldnt be to stop it, but to have third party review that procedures are being followed to the letter and that no abuse is going on. Someone that is not funded or otherwise controlled by the owning agency or DoD/DoJ. Checks and balances. Trust, but verify.

In order to protect your power grid, computer networks, commerce, as well as your physical persons, you need to monitor a lot of things. You have to be able to make connections. Every major country and plenty of minor ones are going after US infrastructure and data. We focus on terrorist attacks in the news because it is easy to visualize, but a lot of this data is to protect US people and interests and it just cant be done if you dont know who is doing it.

I cant tell you (both literally and figuratively) how many spies infiltrate the US daily. Some are going after defense targets like when the group of chinese military gained access to GE factory that was making the F-35 jet engines, or the ones that stole the plans to the F-22 and made their version. Others are stealing every bit of your credit card data and committing identity theft against you. Some are testing and stressing how to turn off the power grid. Some are testing networks in general to find spots to infiltrate. Even more are just going to schools or living in the burbs figuring out how we work and who does what and becoming facebook friends to monitor you and your connections to see if you do something they are interested in. It's a scary world out there if you ever peel back that layer.

If you dont monitor phonecalls and other systems in a historical manner, you cant accurately figure out what is going on when you do get that good piece of information.

We should absolutely protect freedom, but the reality is that you have to give up some electronic communications in order to protect the network those communications operate on. If we didnt stop hackers from trying to take down the internet or specific sites, there would be no internet to take down. Having datamined call logs doesnt impair your freedom, and in fact, helps keep it so you can even place those phone calls in the first place.

 

[Alexandra]

This Just IN CNN LIVE -

Group of Angry Hackers storm the White House protesting the government's access to Verizon records....

 

[fauxshizle]

BBC News - US 'orders Verizon to disclose millions of phone records'

:-O

I guess I could care less since I have nothing to hide, but if the information can be used to stop terrorist attacks, I guess it's a necessary evil to comb records.

Alex, that kind of thinking is exactly why were going to shit ina Tilt-o-Whirl

And WTF are you doing about it? Honestly, WTF are any of you doing, are you at arms storming the state capital. It doesn't matter a goddamn what I think. If I'm not DOING anything, than my thinking has nothing to do with anything, so what if I'm not bothered. If those of you that ARE bothered are not doing anything, you are in my same fucking boat.

My brother is on this kick too, all his posts on FB aren't doing shit, so either step up or shut up.

Oh and...my fucking thinking didn't get us in any kind of tilt a whirl, it's the people that are doing all the talking and not doing any acting on it who's got us to this point.

Sorry, but really getting piss sick of all this talk. Honestly just damn fed up with all the talk talk talk and no fucking action . If things are so GD bad, do something.

Have a damn nice day! Yes, cussing made me feel better~

Alex, ...your right there...no action, means we don't care that much..

And PeteSampras is right too.....Just like that Wired Mag story I posted months back, the NSA's new facility in the desert is capable of intercepting and storing ALL communication............ALL whats a few Verizon calls?

 

[PeteSampras]

Well the news stations, as usual, don't really present the story in full context. FISA is a limited duration request for monitoring of communications. This was created by Bush out of 9/11. It is renewed every 90 days by a court in a classified setting. The processes and documentation are all available for legal review.

In additional to the statutes/laws, there are a few intelligence oversights that factor in like Executive Order 12333 and PA1974 and a couple others that regulate what info, in what context, and how long you can store information. You also have to have mission authorization for each tier of collecting vs analyzing vs storing open source or personal information.

So a person that willingly allows you to keep and store their information gets a longer timeline for asking them for permission again vs someone that doesnt give you permission. But you are still required to perform reviews at 3/6/12 month intervals depending on their category and either reacquire that permission, move them to a hostile category and get a FISA or other, or delete their info.

Storing a phone number calling another phone number, in and of itself, is NOT personal information and doesnt fall into that category. It is only personal information if stored alongside PII (Personally Identifiable Information) like a name or id or SSN or birthday or something. You dont know WHO made the phone call, you just know that phone number A made a phonecall to phone number B. Which helps for call chain analysis, but wouldnt do much for you otherwise. So datamining calls by themselves in a self contained database isnt technically violating rules nor requires a FISA so long as you are only getting the numbers and not the people attached to those numbers. If you are monitoring conversation or content or adding PII, that requires the FISA.

So when you read the news stories, note the phrases and terminology used by both sides to become a more informed citizen!