Bin Laden is Dead

The most aggressive oil companies have estimated the time line to produce reasonable quantities of oil for consumption from shale and oil sands is a decade to 12 years. There is very minimal RND into extraction and processing of these types of resources currently, and it's not an ON/OFF switch to develop the technologies based upon oil prices. Offshore drilling, shale drilling and ANWAR drilling will not decrease oil costs at all. Every major oil corporation has confirmed that.

The propaganda to increase drilling areas immediately is to establish a resource income for finite fossil fuel resources in the decades to come - not to lower prices now.
 
Creating newer, more efficient refineries would do more to lowering the price of gas than offshore drilling, shale drilling and ANWAR drilling combined.
 
Creating newer, more efficient refineries would do more to lowering the price of gas than offshore drilling, shale drilling and ANWAR drilling combined.

There will never be another billion dollar refinery built in the US. It falls in the same category as a chemical plant. Of chemical plant construction since 2005 that cost more than $250 mil to build, zero were built in the United States. The construction itself in China is one third less and the cost to run the plant is over half the cost in the US. Not a single share holder is going to vote for construction in the US.
 
Allowing drilling to take place on US soil is a fundamental flaw with the Democrat thought process. It won't happen. They would rather be diplomatic and send money to other countries. Obama could not even come close to controlling gas prices because he doesn't know how to for one, and for two, it would alienate his backers within his own party to take the logical steps needed to lower said prices.

Everything here is political. Politics rarely have any common sense involved.
 
The most aggressive oil companies have estimated the time line to produce reasonable quantities of oil for consumption from shale and oil sands is a decade to 12 years. There is very minimal RND into extraction and processing of these types of resources currently, and it's not an ON/OFF switch to develop the technologies based upon oil prices. Offshore drilling, shale drilling and ANWAR drilling will not decrease oil costs at all. Every major oil corporation has confirmed that.
The propaganda to increase drilling areas immediately is to establish a resource income for finite fossil fuel resources in the decades to come - not to lower prices now.

That's a pretty bold contention. Where's your proof of that?? Along with your other absolute statements. No, it isn't as simple as an ON/OFF switch but it's amazing what corporations and technology can accomplish if they really want to. And the price of gasoline would most likely drop well before the full online development of shale oil because the market always reacts in advance of developments.

In any case, additional oil for sale in the world markets will NOT decrease the price of a gallon of gasoline?? Really? Really? Or as they'd say on South Park... Really?? I thought petroleum was ALL about "supply and demand"?

The bottom line truth is nobody can predict the future, certainly never as absolute as you purport to do here. But one reality is moving in the direction of increasing our supply of fossil fuels while moving the US away from dependence on foreign sources for energy, especially HOSTILE foreign sources, can only be a move in a better direction. Surely, you can't deny those contentions.
 
Seriously? Do some research on commodities trading and oil speculation. Also take a look at RND, production and extraction times of sand and shale based oil - and how complex the process of locating crude is. You need to expand your knowledge base.
 
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Seriously? Do some research on commodities trading and oil speculation. Also take a look at RND, production and extraction times of sand and shale based oil - and how complex the process of locating crude is. You need to expand your knowledge base.

In other words, he doesn't have the documented proof available so he's going to task you with finding it instead. That's how you win arguments! :D
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/05/oil-prices-plunge-in-reco_n_858275.html

That happened today. Please explain to me how oil is based on supply and demand, when OPEC has kept supply exactly the same for the last 6 months, prices have shot up 50%, and in one day, we witnessed a massive sell off that put crude for May and June below $100.

If you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, that's fine - but be less stereotypical. I'm sorry I'm not going to spend the energy linking you the reality of the world. You have an ideology you want to believe, you're not interested in educating yourself, I'm not here to do it for you.

That's how you win an arguments.
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/05/oil-prices-plunge-in-reco_n_858275.html

That happened today. Please explain to me how oil is based on supply and demand, when OPEC has kept supply exactly the same for the last 6 months, prices have shot up 50%, and in one day, we witnessed a massive sell off that put crude for May and June below $100.

If you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, that's fine - but be less stereotypical. I'm sorry I'm not going to spend the energy linking you the reality of the world. You have an ideology you want to believe, you're not interested in educating yourself, I'm not here to do it for you.

That's how you win an arguments.

Huffington post is well documented on false reporting and innacuracies that they later recant. I trust them as much as I do fox news - as such, that's not much of an explanation. You also didn't really argue anything with any explanation, all you did was link and huff (pun intended).

With that being said, and this is long, but I invite you to read and understand it.

McCain, amazingly, spent all summer telling us reporters that the reason for the spike in gas prices was that socialists like Barack Obama were refusing to permit immediate drilling for oil off the coast of Florida...How about Barack Obama? He offered a lot of explanations, too. In many ways the McCain-Obama split on the gas prices issue was a perfect illustration of how left-right politics works in this country. McCain blamed the problem, both directly and indirectly, on a combination of government, environmentalists, and foreigners.
Obama knew his audience and aimed elsewhere. He blamed the problem on greedy oil companies and also blamed ordinary Americans for their wastefulness, for driving SUVs and other gas-guzzlers.

Both candidates were selling the public a storyline that had nothing to do with the truth. Gas prices were going up for reasons completely unconnected to the causes these candidates were talking about. What really happened was that Wall Street had opened a new table in its casino. The new gaming table was called commodity index investing. And when it became the hottest new
game in town, America suddenly got a very painful lesson in the glorious possibilities of taxation without representation. Wall Street turned gas prices into a gaming table, and when they hit a hot streak we ended up making exorbitant involuntary payments for a commodity that one simply cannot live without

...

All the way back in 1936, after gamblers disguised as Wall Street brokers destroyed the American economy, the government of Franklin D. Roosevelt passed a law called the Commodity Exchange Act that was specifically designed to prevent speculators from screwing around with the prices of day-to-day life necessities like wheat and corn and soybeans and oil and gas.

Let's say you're that cereal company and your business plan for the next year depends on your being able to buy corn at a maximum of $3.00 a bushel. And maybe corn right now is selling at $2.90 a bushel, but you want to insulate yourself against the risk that prices might skyrocket in the next year. So you buy a bunch of futures contracts for corn that give you the right—say, six months from now, or a year from now—to buy corn at $3.00 a bushel.

Now, if corn prices go up, if there's a terrible drought and corn becomes scarce and ridiculously expensive, you could give a damn, because you can buy at $3.00 no matter what. That's the proper use of the commodities futures market.

It works in reverse, too—maybe you grow corn, and maybe you're worried about a glut the following year that might, say, drive the price of corn down to $2.50 or below. So you sell futures for a year from now at $2.90 or $3.00, locking in your sale price for the next year. If that drought happens and the price of corn skyrockets, you might lose out, but at least you can plan for the future based on a reasonable price.

These buyers and sellers of real stuff are the physical hedgers. The FDR administration recognized, however, that in order for the market to properly function, there needed to exist another kind of player—the speculator. The entire purpose of the speculator, as originally envisioned by the people who designed this market, was to guarantee that the physical hedgers, the real
players, could always have a place to buy and/or sell their products.

Again, imagine you're that corn grower but you bring your crop to market at a moment when the cereal company isn't buying. That's where the speculator comes in. He buys up your corn and hangs on to it. Maybe a little later, that cereal company comes to the market looking for corn—but there are no corn growers selling anything at that moment. Without the speculator there, both grower and cereal company would be fucked in the instance of a temporary disruption.
With the speculator, however, everything runs smoothly. The corn grower goes to the market with his corn, maybe there are no cereal companies buying, but the speculator takes his crop at $2.80 a bushel. Ten weeks later, the cereal guy needs corn, but no growers are there—so he buys from the speculator, at $3.00 a bushel. The speculator makes money, the grower unloads his crop, the cereal company gets its commodities at a decent price, everyone's happy.

This system functioned more or less perfectly for about fifty years. It was tightly regulated by the government, which recognized that the influence of speculators had to be watched carefully. If speculators were allowed to buy up the whole corn crop, or even a big percentage of it, for instance, they could easily manipulate the price. So the government set up position limits, which guaranteed that at any given moment, the trading on the commodities markets would be dominated by the physical hedgers, with the speculators playing a purely functional role in the margins to keep things running smoothly.

...

in 1991, J. Aron—the Goldman subsidiary—wrote to the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (the government agency overseeing this market) and asked for one measly exception to the rules.

The whole definition of physical hedgers was needlessly restrictive, J. Aron argued. Sure, a corn farmer who bought futures contracts to hedge the risk of a glut in corn prices had a legitimate reason to be hedging his bets. After all, being a farmer was risky! Anything could happen to a farmer, what with nature being involved and all!

Everyone who grew any kind of crop was taking a risk, and it was only right and natural that the government should allow these good people to buy futures contracts to offset that risk.

But what about people on Wall Street? Were not they, too, like farmers, in the sense that they were taking a risk, exposing themselves to the whims of economic nature? After all, a speculator who bought up corn also had risk—investment risk. So, Goldman's subsidiary argued, why not allow the poor speculator to escape those cruel position limits and be allowed to make transactions in unlimited amounts? Why even call him a speculator at all? Couldn't J. Aron call itself a physical hedger too? After all, it was taking real risk—just like a farmer!

On October 18, 1991, the CFTC-in the person of Laurie Ferber, an appointee of the first President Bush—agreed with J. Aron's letter. Ferber wrote that she understood that Aron was asking that its speculative activity be recognized as "bona fide hedging"—and, after a lot of jargon and legalese, she accepted that argument. This was the beginning of the end for position limits and for the proper balance between physical hedgers and speculators in the energy markets.
In the years that followed, the CFTC would quietly issue sixteen similar letters to other companies. Now speculators were free to take over the commodities market. By 2008, fully 80 percent of the activity on the commodity exchanges was speculative, according to one congressional staffer who studied the numbers—"and that's being conservative," he said.

...

One congressional staffer, a former aide to the Energy and Commerce Committee, just happened to be there when certain CFTC officials mentioned the letters offhand in a hearing. "I had been invited by the Agriculture Committee to a hearing the CFTC was holding on energy," the aide recounts. "And suddenly in the middle of it they start saying, 'Yeah, we've been issuing these letters for years now.' And I raised my hand and said, 'Really? You issued a letter? Can I see it?' And they were like, 'Uh-oh.'

"So we had a lot of phone conversations with them, and we went back and forth," he continues. "And finally they said, 'We have to clear it with Goldman Sachs.' And I'm like, 'What do you mean, you have to clear it with Goldman Sachs?'"

...

[What you're doing when you invest in the S&P GSCI is buying monthly futures contracts for each of these commodities. If you decide to simply put a thousand dollars into the S&P GSCI and leave it there, the same way you might with a mutual fund, this is a little more complicated—what you're really doing is buying twenty-four different monthly futures contracts, and then at the end of each month you're selling the expiring contracts and buying a new set of twenty-four contracts. After all, if you didn't sell those futures contracts, someone would actually be delivering barrels of oil to your doorstep. Since you don't really need oil, and you're just investing to make money, you have to continually sell your futures contracts and buy new ones in what amounts to a ridiculously overcomplex way of betting on the prices of oil and gas and cocoa and coffee.

This process of selling this month's futures and buying the next month's futures is called rolling. Unlike shares of stock, which you can simply buy and hold, investing in commodities involves gazillions of these little transactions made over time. So you can't really do it by yourself: you usually have to outsource all of this activity, typically to an investment bank, which makes fees handling this process every month.

...

To look at this another way—just to make it easy—let's create something we call the McDonaldland Menu Index (MMI). The MMI is based upon the price of eleven McDonald's products, including the Big Mac, the Quarter Pounder, the shake, fries, and hash browns. Let's say the total price of those eleven products on November l, 2010, is $37.90. Now let's say you bet $1,000 on the McDonaldland Menu Index on that date, November 1. A month later, the total price of those eleven products is now $39.72.

Well, gosh, that's a 4.8 percent price increase. Since you put $1,000 into the MMI on November 1, on December 1 you've now got $1,048. A smart investment!
Just to be clear—you didn't actually buy $1,000 worth of Big Macs and fries and shakes. All you did is bet $1,000 on the prices of Big Macs and fries and shakes.

But here's the thing: if you were just some schmuck on the street and you wanted to gamble on this nonsense, you couldn't do it, because your behavior would be speculative and restricted under that old 1936 Commodity Exchange Act, which supposedly maintained that delicate balance between speculator and physical hedger (i.e., the real producers/consumers). Same goes for a giant pension fund or a trust that didn't have one of those magic letters. Even if you wanted into this craziness, you couldn't get in, because it was barred to the Common Speculator. The only way for you to get to the gaming table was, in essence, to rent the speculator-hedger exemption that the government had quietly given to companies like Goldman Sachs via those sixteen letters.

...

[T]he people who managed the great pools of money in this world—the pension funds, the funds belonging to trade unions, and the sovereign wealth funds, those utterly gigantic quasi-private pools of money run by foreign potentates, usually Middle Eastern states looking to do something with their oil profits. It meant someone was offering them a new place to put their money. A safe place. A profitable place.

Why not bet on something that people can't do without—like food or gas or oil? What could be safer than that? As if people will ever stop buying gasoline! Or wheat! Hell, this is America. Motherfuckers be eating pasta and cran muffins by the metric ton for the next ten centuries! Look at the asses on people in this country. Just let them try to cut back on wheat, and sugar, and corn!

But there were several major problems with this kind of thinking—i.e., the notion that the prices of oil and gas and wheat and soybeans were something worth investing in for the long term, the same way one might invest in stock.

For one thing, the whole concept of taking money from pension funds and dumping it long-term into the commodities market went completely against the spirit of the delicate physical hedger/speculator balance as envisioned by the 1936 law. The speculator was there, remember, to serve traders on both sides. He was supposed to buy corn from the grower when the cereal company wasn't buying that day and sell corn to the cereal company when the farmer lost his crop to bugs or drought or whatever. In market language, he was supposed to "provide liquidity."
The one thing he was not supposed to do was buy buttloads of corn and sit on it for twenty years at a time. This is not "providing liquidity." This is actually the opposite of that. It's hoarding.

...

The other problem with index investing is that it's "long only." In the stock market, there are people betting both for and against stocks. But in commodities, nobody invests in prices going down. "Index speculators lean only in one direction-long—and they lean with all their might," says Masters. Meaning they push prices only in one direction: up.

The other problem with index investing is that it brings tons of money into a market where people traditionally are extremely sensitive to the prices of individual goods. When you have ten cocoa growers and ten chocolate companies buying and selling back and forth a total of half a million dollars on the commodities markets, you're going to get a pretty accurate price for cocoa. But if you add to the money put in by those twenty real traders $10 million from index speculators, it queers the whole deal. Because the speculators don't really give a shit what the price is. They just want to buy $10 million worth of cocoa contracts and wait to see if the price goes up.

To use an example frequently offered by Masters, imagine if someone continually showed up at car dealerships and asked to buy $500,000 worth of cars. This mystery person doesn't care how many cars, mind you, he just wants a half million bucks' worth. Eventually, someone is going to sell that guy one car for $500,000. Put enough of those people out there visiting car dealerships, your car market is going to get very weird very quickly. Soon enough, the people who are coming into the dealership looking to buy cars they actually plan on driving are going to find that they've been priced out of the market.

An interesting side note to all of this: if you think about it logically, there are few reasons why anyone would want to invest in a rise in commodity prices over time. With better technology, the cost of harvesting and transporting commodities like wheat and corn is probably going to go down over time, or at the very least is going to hover near inflation, or below it. There are not many good reasons why prices in valued commodities would rise—and certainly very few reasons to expect that the prices of twenty-four different commodities would all rise over and above the rate of inflation over a certain period of time.

What all this means is that when money from index speculators pours into the commodities markets, it makes prices go up. In the stock markets, where again there is betting both for and against stocks (long and short betting), this would probably be a good thing. But in commodities, where almost all speculative money is betting long, betting on prices to go up, this is not a good thing—unless you're one of the speculators.

Anyway, from 2003 to July 2008, the amount of money invested in commodity indices rose from $13 billion to $317 billion—a factor of twenty-five in a space of a little less than five years.

By an amazing coincidence, the prices of all twenty-five commodities listed on the S&P GSCI and the Dow-AIG indices rose sharply during that time. Not some of them, not all of them on the aggregate, but all of them individually and in total as well.

The average price increase was 200 percent. Not one of these commodities saw a price decrease. What an extraordinarily lucky time for investors!

And the top oil analyst at Goldman Sachs quietly conceded, in May 2008, that "without question the increased fund flow into commodities has boosted prices."
One thing we know for sure is that the price increases had nothing to do with supply or demand. In fact, oil supply was at an all-time high, and demand was actually falling. In April 2008 the secretary-general of OPEC, a Libyan named Abdalla El-Badri, said flatly that "oil supply to the market is enough and high oil prices are not due to a shortage of crude." The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) agreed: its data showed that worldwide oil supply rose from 85.3 million barrels a day to 85.6 million from the first quarter to the second that year, and that world oil demand dropped from 86.4 million barrels a day to 85.2 million.

Not only that, but people in the business who understood these things knew that the supply of oil worldwide was about to increase. Two new oil fields in Saudi Arabia and another in Brazil were about to start dumping hundreds of thousands more barrels of oil per day into the market. Fadel Gheit, an analyst for Oppenheimer who has testified before Congress on the issue, says that he spoke personally with the secretary-general of OPEC back in 2005, who insisted that oil prices had to be higher for a very simple reason—increased security costs.
"He said to me, if you think that all these disruptions in Iraq and in the region... look, we haven't had a single tanker attacked, and there are hundreds of them sailing out every day. That costs money, he said. A lot of money."
So therefore, Gheit says, OPEC felt justified in raising the price of oil. To 45 dollars a barrell At the height of the commodities boom, oil was trading for three times that amount.

"I mean, oil shouldn't have been at sixty dollars, let alone a hundred and forty-nine," Gheit says.

This was why there were no lines at the gas stations, no visible evidence of shortages. Despite what we were being told by both Barack Obama and John McCain, there was no actual lack of gasoline. There was nothing wrong with the oil supply.

All of these factors contributed to what would become a historic spike in gas prices in the summer of 2008. The press, when it bothered to cover the story at all, invariably attributed it to a smorgasbord of normal economic factors. The two most common culprits cited were the shaky dollar (investors nervous about keeping their holdings in U.S. dollars were, according to some, more likely to want to shift their holdings into commodities) and the increased worldwide demand for oil caused by the booming Chinese economy.

Both of these factors were real. But neither was any more significant than the massive inflow of speculative cash into the market.

The U.S. Department of Energy's own statistics prove this to be the case. It was true, yes, that China was consuming more and more oil every year. The statistics show the Chinese appetite for oil did in fact increase over time:



If you add up the total increase between each of those years, i.e., the total increase in Chinese oil consumption over the five and a half years between the start of 2003 and the middle of 2008, it turns out to be just under a billion Barrels — 992,261,824 to be exact.

During the same time period, however, the increase in index speculator cash pouring into the commodities markets for petroleum products was almost exactly the same—speculators bought 918,966,932 barrels, according to the CFTC.

Oil shot up like a rocket, hitting an incredible high of $149 a barrel in July 2008, taking with it prices of all the other commodities on the various indices. Food prices soared along with energy prices. According to some estimates by international relief agencies—estimates that did not blame commodity speculation for the problem, incidentally—some 100 million people joined the ranks of the hungry that summer worldwide, because of rising food prices.

Then it all went bust, as it had to, eventually. The bubble burst and oil prices plummeted along with the prices of other commodities. By December, oil was trading at $33.

And then the process started all over again.

So, to briefly recap what we've learned thus far:

- buyers and sellers trade commodities on markets

- speculators help provide liquidity, by buying when sellers wish to sell but no
one wishes to buy, and selling when buyers wish to buy but no one wishes to sell

- however, the biggest banks got exemptions from the government to purchase huge positions on commodities

- instead of selling these positions to buyers, these banks hang on to them, because their investors are all "long", meaning they think the price is going to go up; at the end of every month, they just "roll over" their positions, and keep on holding the things they were supposed to have sold

- because none of the banks sell what they hold, the price goes up; because the price goes up, more people make money on their positions; because they make more money on their positions they buy more stuff and don't sell what they hold; and on and on forever

Are we seeing evidence of this today?

Yes.

Remember how Libya is being blamed for diminishing the world's oil supply with its 1.5 million barrels per day of output?

Well, the investment bank JP Morgan owns over 270 million barrels of oil - equivalent to almost a third of the United States National Emergency Reserve - so much so, in fact, that they, and other banks, are now buying supertankers to store their excess reserves offshore because they've simply run out of space on land.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aZtS4TC9mxJM

June 3 (Bloomberg) -- JPMorgan Chase & Co., the second- largest U.S. bank by deposits, hired a newly built supertanker to store heating oil off Malta, shipbrokers reported, in the company’s first such booking in at least five years.

JPMorgan, which has never hired an oil tanker based on data compiled by Bloomberg going back five years, follows companies including Citigroup Inc.’s Phibro LLC unit and BP Plc in hiring ships to store crude or oil products at sea. The firms are seeking to take advantage of higher prices later in the year.

JPMorgan hired the ship at $35,000 to $41,000 a day, according to the broker reports. The bank is also paying $1.6 million for the ship to sail from Singapore to Europe without a cargo, the brokers said. Long Range 2 tankers cost about $25,000 a day for storage, according to Riverlake Shipping.

Traders were already using smaller tankers to store record volumes of jet fuel and heating oil in Europe as on-shore tanks filled up, D/S Torm A/S, Europe’s biggest oil products shipping line, said April 3.

The current spike in gas prices is not primarily a result of anything to do with the freedom fighters in the Arab world. Nor is it a result of OPEC's production levels, which would suggest a far lower $/gallon than can be found on the open market.

Rather, the spikes are primarily a result of the speculative market on oil. This speculative market is driven by the practices of the biggest banks, who have special exemptions to treat commodities like a casino, who have zero incentive to appropriately hedge their bets, who do not provide the liquidity they were designed to provide, and who generally provide nothing of value to society except to push prices of things higher and higher so that very rich people will continue to invest with them.

I hope you have all learned something from this thread, and I hope you will agree with me that the next time you gasp softly at the price of bread in the supermarket, or read about flour shortages and starvation in Mexico, or have trouble making ends meet because can barely afford to even drive to your job.

And just for fun, how about oil consumption information?

Year Use in BBL Rank % Change Data From
2008 20,680,000 1 -0.24 % 2007 est.
2009 20,680,000 1 0.00 % 2007 est.
2010 18,690,000 1 -9.62 % 2009 est.

So, there's that.

To add from an article from today:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/05/markets-energy-crude-brent-idUSN0510746720110505

May 5 (Reuters) - Brent crude oil futures settled more than 8 percent lower on Thursday to hit their lowest close since mid-March in a sharp commodities sell-off ignited by worries over slowing economic growth and tighter monetary policies.

In London, ICE Brent for June delivery LCOM1 settled at $110.80 a barrel, skidding $10.39, or 8.57 percent. It traded from $109.02 to $121.96.

Brent crude has fallen four straight days, losing $15.09, or 12 percent, the biggest percentage loss in the four days to Jan. 12, 2009, when prices fell 15.08 percent. (Reporting by Gene Ramos and Robert Gibbons; Editing by David Gregorio)

Now let's consider something frightening about the economists on this:

*They don't know.
*They don't know, but they think they do.
*They don't know, but they think they do, but they're worried that they actually don't.
*They don't know, and they do know that they don't know, but they figure that as long as everyone does the same wrong things then it'll all come out right in the end.

The accusation is that speculation artificially inflates the price of the good well beyond any supply/demand considerations. At some point the price comes crashing down again to a more reasonable price level. A sudden steep drop is exactly what the speculation hypothesis would predict, so yeah, this does look like vindication.
 
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Do you realize you just proved my entire argument for me? Did you actually read any of my posts, or did you just react to the first one you saw on this page?

I like how you accuse Huffington Post of perpetuating false information, yet link a Reuters article saying the identical thing.

Anyway - good for you for doing all the leg work to support exactly what I was saying, and siting supporting evidence for all the points I made. I wasn't willing to put the effort forward - fortunately for me, the facts are still the facts.
 
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Saying this seperately after looking at the markets for today, Oil closed below $100 today, over an 8% drop.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/05/05/markets/oil_prices/index.htm?hpt=T1 posted:
"It's like the commodity bubble burst," Daniel Flynn, an energy trader at PFG Best said. "We knew it was going to happen, but didn't know it would be this fast and furious."

So we might actually see a drop in price soonish!
 
Do you realize you just proved my entire argument for me? Did you actually read any of my posts, or did you just react to the first one you saw on this page?

I like how you accuse Huffington Post of perpetuating false information, yet link a Reuters article saying the identical thing.

Anyway - good for you for doing all the leg work to support exactly what I was saying, and siting supporting evidence for all the points I made. I wasn't willing to put the effort forward - fortunately for me, the facts are still the facts.

The difference being I actually posted the information and explained it as you just made a blank argument with a poor linked source. It's still not based on speculation, it really does seem to be more supply and demand. Arguments are won when you actually go into length on the information. Huffington has routinely bitten down on fake videos, photos, news stories, etc. and I can provide links for those too if you like.

Not saying I disagree with you, just saying there's more than just what you said available :p

Edit: And using the blanket term "Everyone said!" is a bad way to go as you have no proof of that without citing specific sources and makes you look ignorant. Base it on fact with links citing said quote to have more weight to what you're saying.

Double edit: Baked Lays Sour Cream and Onion are AMAZING.
 
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I'm sorry - can you clarify in the sources you provided, where it states oil prices seem to be linked to supply and demand over speculation? I must not have read that clearly.
 
I'm sorry - can you clarify in the sources you provided, where it states oil prices seem to be linked to supply and demand over speculation? I must not have read that clearly.

Sure! Truncuated for clarity (albeit muddy):

But if you add to the money put in by those twenty real traders $10 million from index speculators, it queers the whole deal. Because the speculators don't really give a shit what the price is. They just want to buy $10 million worth of cocoa contracts and wait to see if the price goes up.

What all this means is that when money from index speculators pours into the commodities markets, it makes prices go up. In the stock markets, where again there is betting both for and against stocks (long and short betting), this would probably be a good thing. But in commodities, where almost all speculative money is betting long, betting on prices to go up, this is not a good thing—unless you're one of the speculators.

Anyway, from 2003 to July 2008, the amount of money invested in commodity indices rose from $13 billion to $317 billion—a factor of twenty-five in a space of a little less than five years.

The average price increase was 200 percent. Not one of these commodities saw a price decrease. What an extraordinarily lucky time for investors!

Probably a clear as mud quote though, sounds more on the side of
speculation than supply/demand.

Now, looking at the data for supply/production and consumption for the US:

http://www.indexmundi.com/united_states/oil_production.html

Also refer to http://www.indexmundi.com/united_states/oil_consumption.html

That being said, this supports the speculators/investors angle pretty well.

Really it's a dead end argument since we aren't in the business so all we can do is watch the markets and speculate (hah) on what actually drives the prices. I'm just tired of paying out my ass for a tank of gas.

And if you need a good chuckle:

Dear Friend:

Americans want Washington to get out of the way so we can produce more American energy, lower gas prices, and help small business begin hiring again. To answer that call, Republicans today announced the American Energy Initiative, an ongoing effort to increase production of American energy to help lower costs and create jobs, promote an “all of the above” energy strategy, and stop Washington from driving up fuel prices. To get information on our proposals and track our progress, please visit and “Like” the American Energy Initiative Facebook page.



The American Energy Initiative has three goals:

Stopping government policies that are driving up gas prices;
Expanding American energy production to lower costs & create more jobs; and
Promoting an “all of the above” strategy to increase all forms of American energy.
The Initiative is rooted in our Pledge to America. In it, we promised that we would help end uncertainty facing small businesses so they can create jobs. And we said Republicans will fight to increase access to American-made energy sources and oppose policies that drive up prices at the pump. That’s exactly what we’re going to do.

Learn more at the American Energy Initiative Facebook page and follow us as we fight to reduce the burden of rising gas prices.


Sincerely,


John Boehner
Speaker of the House

Also, fun link: http://graphics.thomsonreuters.com/11/02/cftc.html

And finally, as it's a bit dated, but this was more in line with the supply and demand argument and still feels like it holds more weight to me than the speculation argument (even if that seems to be the more obvious route).
 
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/shrug Guess I'm missing something. What I'm understanding from the sources you've linked (and clearly from the research I have done for my own edification) is that oil prices are tied to speculation far more than demand. The only exception to this is the article from 2006 - which is hardly relevant given the massive investment and corporate changes in the last 5 years.

Yes, I could expend the energy to link the sources you have found, - but as I said earlier - this is about an ideology. In reference to Seigetank's posts - he has a belief that suits his state of mind. I could spend 20 minutes gathering references, I could quote the Nobel Peace Prize winning economist Paul Krugman's endless op-eds on oil speculation - but the reality is that this is the Internet. That effort doesn't matter - there will not be an impact. This thread is thick with ideology, not with knowledge.

Everyone gets their own opinion, they don't get their own facts - which is why I opted to not spend the time.
 
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but the reality is that this is the Internet. That effort doesn't matter - there will not be an impact. This thread is thick with ideology, not with knowledge.

Everyone gets their own opinion, they don't get their own facts - which is why I opted to not spend the time.

Oh completely! Like I said it's a moot argument since everyone's going to argue their own side til their blue in the face based on what they read instead of directly from the source - which wouldn't tell us anyway!

One more quote for fun:

First is that he assumes producers can hoard supply when there is a very limited amount of storage. Or that all producers are somehow conspiring to keep supply low when evidence shows the opposite. As I showed above, OPEC member nations consistently cheat and overproduce even though it would be in their interest to keep to the quota.

Another equally massive hole is that he assumes producers profit from hoarding supply. This is false. In a normal bull market, speculators bet prices higher on the futures market, and producers go short, selling more and more of their future production. This effectively locks in their price, which is the whole point of the futures market. Commercials are not speculators.

To give an example. Company A produces one million barrels of crude a month. Oil for next month delivery is currently trading at $100/bbl. Company A would short 1000 contracts, each contract is an obligation to deliver 1000 barrels of oil at $100/bbl. If oil prices move to $120/bbl, Company A would lose $20/bbl on their shorts, but gain the same amount when they sell their oil. The opposite is true, if oil prices fall, Company A would profit on their futures contracts but lose on their actual sale of oil. This is the whole point of the futures market, so producers can lock in a price for their future production, and merchants can lock in a price for their future purchases.

Global demand fell by about three quarters of a percentage point in 08/09, oil dropped from $150/bbl to $35/bbl.

High oil prices are mostly sustained by ever increasing demand, so the actual reduction is bigger than it looks. Average increase in global oil consumption is about 1.75% a year, and hit a high of almost 3.5% in 03/04. So the drop in demand was more on the order of 2.5-4%.

OPEC's response to this was to cut oil production by about 17%, it never even got close to that goal. The actual number was around a 6% cut, which rapidly faded as member nations kept exceeding their quota even though oil was still only $50/bbl.

I'm bored at work so this will keep going:

http://www.npr.org/rss/podcast.php?id=510051 - really neat to listen to and pretty nuts.

For those who don't listen, the claim is that worldwide demand has fallen and supply has risen, yet the price has gone up. Not only does he blame this on speculators who are trying to drive prices up (in order to make more money on their bets I guess), but he also blames the Fed for keeping interest rates so low. He says that the point is to allow small businesses to have access to credit, yet small businesses have effectively not been granted any additional credit at all, instead the money is being used by investment houses for speculation.

Oh hey more links! http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2011/05/04/high-gas-price
 
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Osama Bin Laden
Lob Da Man In Sea.

Conicidence? :p
 
So I went to the bar and ordered a Bin Laden...2 shots and a splash of water!
 
Ok off topic of Kodi's above post. My thoughts are regardless of the motive of us "doing this now", before reelection. Who cares, this one incident wouldn't sway the polls that much. He's dead and at least for me it feels like some justice has been done.

I can still remember 9/11 like it was yesterday, it's forever burned in my memory. I can remember exactly where I was standing when i turned on the TV, I remember watching in shock and literally crying for days afterwards.


They carried out the mission with precision and made all the right decisions.
  • Executing him - regardles of him resisting or not (again I could care less)
  • Dumping his body at sea - I just hope they stuck a few hundreds rounds in this scumbag first

I'm glad they didn't bring him in alive. It spares us the media hoopla and him rallying more support while he went through a long trial.

Ok my 2 cents :)
 
Slug,

All commodities that are traded are based on supply and demand. Just not the current supply and demand. What Kodilynn is saying is exactly correct. Companies try to forecast what the supply and demand will be in the future. With that, they buy product for market conditions that might never truly exist or come to pass. The problem with this, however, is even if those market conditions never come to pass, they have revenue invested in product that was forecasted based on data stating that they would need x amount of product. With that in mind, they set the price to y to cover the cost and build in some profit as well.

This is how business is done. It is the simple fact.

This leads me back to "It's all political". The oil companies love it when people like Obama give them an excuse to have the prices set where they already are. If there was no "whistle-blower" high up in the country, the oil companies would have nothing to fall back on as an excuse to why the prices are high. Instead, they would have to say "Hey, our forecasters fucked up. Can't change it now. We signed a bad deal."

Don't call blatant douchebaggery without the simplest of knowledge on the topic.