Controversial Discussion - Guns

[twizzops]

Anybody who thinks that the lesson to be taken from Bosnia and Rwanda and the Armenian genocide (I happen to be of Armenian heritage) is that governments can't be trusted to protect their people is really, really understudied on those issues. Rwanda occurred after the president's plane was shot down and anarchy ensued. It was the FAILURE of first-world governments to intervene which allowed it. Hence Bill Clinton's tearful (and disingenuous, in my opinion) apology after the fact. And Rwanda is the strongest example of what happens when people of different nations and ethnicities do not feel responsible toward one another. Life went on as usual in the US while 800,000 people died. If those 800,000 people had been American (or Canadian, or French, or British) the killing would have been stopped very early on by an international intervention.

And the same issues persist in Darfur today. You don't have to be a genius to know that a close look at Africa reveals a lot of tough truths about how willfully ignorant we choose to remain about much of the world's condition. Whether you get to own a gun or not seems very petty indeed in the face of wholesale slaughter in the Congo or mass starvation in North Korea.

Only quoting the parts that are in response to my statements:

Not sure where you are getting your facts on Rwanda, but it started off as a civil war and then became genocide after the president's death. The genocide was supported and coordinated by the national government as well as by local military and civil officials and mass media. Alongside the military, primary responsibility for the killings themselves rests with two Hutu militias that had been organized for this purpose by political parties.

It's not the US's responsibility to police the world. You could argue that's the whole reason the UN even exists. The problem with the UN is they are a limp noddle when it comes to using any kind of force. The UN tried to assist and stop the genocide, but was deemed too risky. The UNs only existence is to drain the US coffers for personal gain.

You didn't explain your stance on Bosnia.


My whole reasoning for wanting Americans to continue to own weapons (if they choose) is to prevent anything like this from ever happening in the US. These actions have happened in China, Russia and Germany, they could one day happen here if there's no checks and balances. A well armed civilian population is one hell of a check. Not sure if you are kept up on current events, but the US is as divided as ever.

There's many other reasons as to why assault weapons are necessary which were all listed on the first page.

 

[twizzops]

But seriously: I'm with JJ on the re-rail. You all can take any final potshots you want, but if you want to continue to prod the resident liberal like a lab specimen, just send me a Skype IM. I'm glad to keep debating my incomprehensible belief system, but let's get this back on track:

Assault weapon + high capacity mag ban. Mandatory background check on all gun purchases. That's what Obama called for. Thoughts?

I think the prevention of Genocide within the US is a very valid reason for wanting assault weapons with high capacity mags.

The revolutionary war was fought and won off the backs of colonial citizens owning their own weapons. If the same holds true, it's unlikely that any country will ever seriously consider invading.

The same for the civil war, a large portion of the weapons used were personal weapons. Let's hope it never comes to this, but let's face it we are a Nation divided as ever. Have you looked at voting trends and how the states differ. When the federal government continues to force states to obey federal law over their own laws, there will eventually be a breaking point. What would happen if a state like Texas ever actually succeeds from the Union?

 

[kirbanmanaburn]

I think making the leap from your average gun owner (let alone the average person who wants to buy an assault rifle) all the way to Revolutionary or Civil war militias requires an incredibly imaginative gesture. One of my best friends is the CFO of a major arms dealer in Arkansas. His average client is not exactly the first person I would want defending my rights, or making decisions about when it's time to rise up violently.

I don't know what would happen if Texas seceded. But I do know that comparing the current political climate to that era is a little ridiculous. You know, given that we don't currently enslave black people.

 

[JimJohnson]

I think making the leap from your average gun owner (let alone the average person who wants to buy an assault rifle) all the way to Revolutionary or Civil war militias requires an incredibly imaginative gesture. One of my best friends is the CFO of a major arms dealer in Arkansas. His average client is not exactly the first person I would want defending my rights, or making decisions about when it's time to rise up violently.

So what is his average client?

 

[kirbanmanaburn]

White, male, mid-40s, heavily overweight, highly belligerent personality, slightly paranoid, politically libertarian, has lived in one place most of his life, doesn't particularly like women or minorities, owns at least 9 or 10 guns (if not dozens), works in a white collar job, etc.

Essentially the stereotypical gun owner.

 

[Deflator]

White, male, mid-40s, heavily overweight, highly belligerent personality, slightly paranoid, politically libertarian, has lived in one place most of his life, doesn't particularly like women or minorities, owns at least 9 or 10 guns (if not dozens), works in a white collar job, etc.

Essentially the stereotypical gun owner.

That sounds a lot like what you're projecting on all gun owners.

Hint:

They don't all look the same.

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytime...wnership-statistics-partisan-divide-is-sharp/

Millions of democrats own guns.

 

[twizzops]

I think making the leap from your average gun owner (let alone the average person who wants to buy an assault rifle) all the way to Revolutionary or Civil war militias requires an incredibly imaginative gesture. One of my best friends is the CFO of a major arms dealer in Arkansas. His average client is not exactly the first person I would want defending my rights, or making decisions about when it's time to rise up violently.

I don't know what would happen if Texas seceded. But I do know that comparing the current political climate to that era is a little ridiculous. You know, given that we don't currently enslave black people.

The Civil War wasn't about slaves, it was about states rights over the federal government. The 10th amendment was very clear.

I am not sure what you mean by the average client, but you don't have to be very intelligent to be well trained and deadly.

 

[twizzops]

White, male, mid-40s, heavily overweight, highly belligerent personality, slightly paranoid, politically libertarian, has lived in one place most of his life, doesn't particularly like women or minorities, owns at least 9 or 10 guns (if not dozens), works in a white collar job, etc.

Essentially the stereotypical gun owner.

That sounds a lot like what you're projecting on all gun owners.

Hint:

They don't all look the same.

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytime...wnership-statistics-partisan-divide-is-sharp/

Millions of democrats own guns.

I am surprised that only 59% of veterans owns a gun. I would have thought it would be in the 90s.

Been around guns all of my life. I am a white male, 32, in shape, libertarian, married and loves his family and wife, social, intelligent, have a very good paying job and a war veteran. My guns are secure but accessible and strategic placed in my house. When my children are older I will teach them about gun safety and what will happen to them if I ever catch them playing with the guns.

 

[kirbanmanaburn]

Wait, those people in that picture are supposed to make me COMFORTABLE with allowing gun owners to rise up in a violent overthrow?

Also, people who say the Civil War was about states' rights are the same people who put confederate flag bumper stickers on their cars.

 

[Deflator]

Ah, yes, gay gun owners. Teabaggers hate them because they're gay, the far left hate them because they own guns.

Clearly terrible people, though.

Edit:

Pic was too big, don't feel like resizing it. Just look how dangerous they look.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_NMzNKmk0CHA/TCf0cieWVOI/AAAAAAAAAT4/Mv_O_mD2EtI/s1600/Pink+Pistols+1.JPG

 

[DT]

I heard a really interesting radio program on the way to work this morning.

Question #1They wanted someone to provide a reason as to why owning a semi - automatic assault rifle was necessary and in what scenario it could be used efficiently for good (and other means of protection would not work, glock, etc...)

Not trying to open a can of worms, but this did get me thinking and I couldn't answer it.

Since this is a forum of extremely smart men (and a few extremely smart girlies , I thought I'd see if anyone wants to chime in.

RULE - must answer the question as stated...no digressing

Question #2 - Should folks with mental disabilities, aspergers, autism, mental illness be taught to shoot gun for any reason?

Question 1: It doesn't matter in what scenario it might be used as long as it is obtained legally.

Question 2: My son has Aspergers. Personally, I don't want him near a gun or to learn how to shoot one. It does upset me, though, to hear that these shooters have "autism" or their "autism caused this reaction". That is the stupidest thing I have heard. I think any rule that broadbrushes a set of mental disabilities is too contrived and controlling.

 

[fauxshizle]

Wait, those people in that picture are supposed to make me COMFORTABLE with allowing gun owners to rise up in a violent overthrow?

You don't live in a "nation" with a "flag" to overthrow, so you have nothing to worry about.

I can tell your understanding of well....everything, is very child like.
I'm sure someone still wipes your ass. I also suggest you spend more time in Nigeria, you will vanish, and your bones will be made into curse powder by some Witch Doctor. Just think.......If you only could have achieved an actual human identity and personality, instead of modeling your life after the apes Jane Goodall observed, you wouldn't have to run from country to country, desperately trying to find friends.

 

[kirbanmanaburn]

I also suggest you spend more time in Nigeria, you will vanish, and your bones will be made into curse powder by some Witch Doctor.

Blatant, disgusting stereotypical racism. IMHO, this post should be moderated or deleted.

 

[hoppy96pgtbs]

Zombie Apocalypse

 

[orion949]

White, male, mid-40s, heavily overweight, highly belligerent personality, slightly paranoid, politically libertarian, has lived in one place most of his life, doesn't particularly like women or minorities, owns at least 9 or 10 guns (if not dozens), works in a white collar job, etc.

Essentially the stereotypical gun owner.

I also suggest you spend more time in Nigeria, you will vanish, and your bones will be made into curse powder by some Witch Doctor.

Blatant, disgusting stereotypical racism. IMHO, this post should be moderated or deleted.

Are you even keeping track of your own fucking half-brained rantings dude?

First you steriotype all Gun owners into on big clump of fat old white dudes who hate everybody, then you have the balls to call this guy out for STEREOTYPING???? Are you fucking kidding me??

PS
Just for your info, my MOM is a gun owner 2x rifles 1x shotty and 1x pistol and she is a 60 year old, tree hugging, nature loving, raving liberal trying to save the world. (yes, the nut did fall far from the tree, I know.)

 

[fauxshizle]

I also suggest you spend more time in Nigeria, you will vanish, and your bones will be made into curse powder by some Witch Doctor.

Blatant, disgusting stereotypical racism. IMHO, this post should be moderated or deleted.

You are a stupid motherfucker , here ya go.....

http://www.takepart.com/article/201...raft-accusations-fueled-occult-beliefs-africa

 

[hawthorne]

Saw quite a few people throwing some statistics around. Thought maybe everyone would like some facts about some of the things they are saying.

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

My answers to Alexandra's questions:
1. In case of government tyranny. In case of invasion by a foreign power. Since the last invasion of a sovereign nation was less than a month ago, I think this is pretty reasonable. In case of zombie infestation, civil disorder, global infrastructure collapse. Thse things are by default not something that can always be predicted. Be prepared and all that.

2. It really does depend. I have a really good friend who has Aspbergers. He hates guns personally but I would have no issues with him owning a gun. I think that if it's a condition that requires medication, there should be doctor approval for any firearms license. Of course there are always loopholes and if we could get better at taking care of one another, it might actually help matters.

 

[Zeta1]

Look at my avatar: that's how I feel about gun control

 

[Kodilynn]

Keep it on topic, drop the insults - direct or not. The discussion is lively, keep it on that track.

 

[Mspudd14]

Replying rather late to Alex's original post and I admit up front I haven't read the replies beyond the first page....

1st. Semi Automatic and Automatic are basically weapons of close range (aka a mob) or someone who has no business handling a weapon. Marksman's need 1 or 2 shots to get their point made.

I've no problems with citizens owning weapons or even stock piling an arsenal of weapons so long as those weapons are single trigger single bullet weapons. Anything beyond that is to put it bluntly is nothing more than sloppy or simply asking for collateral dmg.

Anything that can cause mass death should be in the hands of the police or army. Our leaders are after all elected and have limited terms in office. If you vote for someone who abuses that power than you have no further to look for blame than the nearest mirror. If you didn't then keep you damn head down and convince the mental giant you know that did he made a mistake the next time the election takes place.

2. Not under any circumstance. Doing so makes you as culpable in my eyes as he/she should they abuse that knowledge/skill. If you are not one of their victims then you should be tried as if you were the one pulling the trigger yourself.

I should clarify that I am referring to any mental disability that affects an individuals mental maturity or those affecting someones ability to tell wrong from right.


***
Personally I see every school shooting and similar incidents as a reflection on the piss poor parenting skills rampant now days. I can understand most parents desire to give their children what they didn't have growing up and their need to work harder their parents did to accomplish it. But their children who were bereft of these basic values have only made things worse because they themselves lacked those basic values so are not capable of teaching these kids shooting other children now. Its hard to teach right, wrong, and any real sort of basic values if your never around.

Respect, Consideration of others, and Personal Responsibility are things that are no longer the norm but instead rarities now days. Children are taught at a young age that you listen to authority but not to respect them or listen to them when out of sight and mind. Consideration of others... that is the last thing on any ones mind under the age of 20 if not as old as their 30's. Responsibility... nah the learned response today is to blame others for your own damn faults.

Please, Thank you, Excuse me... These are words I use every time I go out into the public. Yet I honestly can't remember the last time I heard any of those used by anyone but someone in the customer service work force where they are basically expected or forced to say them!

**Please disregard the sig. It has been for all previous post not to antagonize flamers on an already touche subject such as this.