Some questions for r/l believers

[cadman]

Family and I recently ventured out on a holiday, and in our travels met up with some friends who we had kept in touch with but that had moved away 10 yrs or so ago.

While sitting down, chatting as our kids were running round a playground, and discussing methods for becoming self sufficient to escape this insane, driving consumerism that the world has formed around, religion came up. This is because I asked (he's a nurse, she's a teacher) "You guys can see this world is going to hell, how are you preparing for it?", and she said "When it happens, we won't be here" with a smug, slightly disdainful look. Knowing they were both born again christians, it only took me about 2 seconds to realise "ahh, rapture". So I asked a few more questions in a completely respectful way, and found they both honestly believe that the world is 6000 years old, as is the universe, and dinosaurs and humans all lived together before the flood, and Adam and Eve were created as perfect human beings, and that god created entropy because they sinned. I asked for proof, was told to google creation science, and so I did. *Wow*.

I am an athiest. I have to ask - how on earth can the human mind take in all the evidence they see around them, read in books, watch on television, hear from highly intelligent people, and disregard it all because a book compiled 1600 years ago tells them to.

I am not smart enough to understand how the faithful can think like this. Can anyone explain it to me in a respectful way, and without saying "because the bible says so"?

 

[JimJohnson]

Family and I recently ventured out on a holiday, and in our travels met up with some friends who we had kept in touch with but that had moved away 10 yrs or so ago.

While sitting down, chatting as our kids were running round a playground, and discussing methods for becoming self sufficient to escape this insane, driving consumerism that the world has formed around, religion came up. This is because I asked (he's a nurse, she's a teacher) "You guys can see this world is going to hell, how are you preparing for it?", and she said "When it happens, we won't be here" with a smug, slightly disdainful look. Knowing they were both born again christians, it only took me about 2 seconds to realise "ahh, rapture". So I asked a few more questions in a completely respectful way, and found they both honestly believe that the world is 6000 years old, as is the universe, and dinosaurs and humans all lived together before the flood, and Adam and Eve were created as perfect human beings, and that god created entropy because they sinned. I asked for proof, was told to google creation science, and so I did. *Wow*.

I am an athiest. I have to ask - how on earth can the human mind take in all the evidence they see around them, read in books, watch on television, hear from highly intelligent people, and disregard it all because a book compiled 1600 years ago tells them to.

I am not smart enough to understand how the faithful can think like this. Can anyone explain it to me in a respectful way, and without saying "because the bible says so"?

Removeing faith is like removing welfare checks. It is a collapse to society as we know it.

Faith is hope, a reason for being. No Faith is basically no religion.

Absence of Faith would remove all order and death and mayhem would prevail

 

[smason]

I had a boss like that and he was very adamant about it to the point of getting hostile. His reply to dinosaurs was that they were put there so people would have faith or something like that. Was crazy to me, but everyone has their own ideas.

 

[cadman]

Family and I recently ventured out on a holiday, and in our travels met up with some friends who we had kept in touch with but that had moved away 10 yrs or so ago.

While sitting down, chatting as our kids were running round a playground, and discussing methods for becoming self sufficient to escape this insane, driving consumerism that the world has formed around, religion came up. This is because I asked (he's a nurse, she's a teacher) "You guys can see this world is going to hell, how are you preparing for it?", and she said "When it happens, we won't be here" with a smug, slightly disdainful look. Knowing they were both born again christians, it only took me about 2 seconds to realise "ahh, rapture". So I asked a few more questions in a completely respectful way, and found they both honestly believe that the world is 6000 years old, as is the universe, and dinosaurs and humans all lived together before the flood, and Adam and Eve were created as perfect human beings, and that god created entropy because they sinned. I asked for proof, was told to google creation science, and so I did. *Wow*.

I am an athiest. I have to ask - how on earth can the human mind take in all the evidence they see around them, read in books, watch on television, hear from highly intelligent people, and disregard it all because a book compiled 1600 years ago tells them to.

I am not smart enough to understand how the faithful can think like this. Can anyone explain it to me in a respectful way, and without saying "because the bible says so"?

Removeing faith is like removing welfare checks. It is a collapse to society as we know it.

Faith is hope, a reason for being. No Faith is basically no religion.

Absence of Faith would remove all order and death and mayhem would prevail

Based on that logic, the faithful believe the genesis story, taking an intellectual bullet so to speak, to prevent the breakdown of civilization? Very noble of them.

 

[wilbunk]

yes

Religions time is limited.

 

[PumpThump]

Family and I recently ventured out on a holiday, and in our travels met up with some friends who we had kept in touch with but that had moved away 10 yrs or so ago.

While sitting down, chatting as our kids were running round a playground, and discussing methods for becoming self sufficient to escape this insane, driving consumerism that the world has formed around, religion came up. This is because I asked (he's a nurse, she's a teacher) "You guys can see this world is going to hell, how are you preparing for it?", and she said "When it happens, we won't be here" with a smug, slightly disdainful look. Knowing they were both born again christians, it only took me about 2 seconds to realise "ahh, rapture". So I asked a few more questions in a completely respectful way, and found they both honestly believe that the world is 6000 years old, as is the universe, and dinosaurs and humans all lived together before the flood, and Adam and Eve were created as perfect human beings, and that god created entropy because they sinned. I asked for proof, was told to google creation science, and so I did. *Wow*.

I am an athiest. I have to ask - how on earth can the human mind take in all the evidence they see around them, read in books, watch on television, hear from highly intelligent people, and disregard it all because a book compiled 1600 years ago tells them to.

I am not smart enough to understand how the faithful can think like this. Can anyone explain it to me in a respectful way, and without saying "because the bible says so"?

Removeing faith is like removing welfare checks. It is a collapse to society as we know it.

Faith is hope, a reason for being. No Faith is basically no religion.

Absence of Faith would remove all order and death and mayhem would prevail

I am a mathematician, and a Christian believer (just to set the stage for my thinking). However, I don't believe in the 6000 year old Earth. I'm not a subscriber that the wording in Genesis is literal when it means the Earth was created in 7 days. God is the only truly 4-dimensional (at least) being in that he experiences Time all at once much the way you can look at an entire meter stick at the same time. A second to God could last a billion years to us. Or, a second to us could last a billion years to God. It really doesn't matter how long it took God to create everything to me, only that he did. Think about it, if God does exist then do you think you, as a creation, would be meant to ever understand the inner workings of something so immensely powerful that he could literally hold the entire universe in the palm of his hand? Not so much.

Now, as far as religion and society. There are a few elements that Religion gives us as a society (yes, even to atheists) that the world would be a terrifying place without. I'll just name and talk about a couple of them.

One of them is definitely hope. We have such an immensely overwhelming percentage of the world living in poverty, starvation, disease, etc. If you took away the hope of an afterlife that is promised to be better than the shit hole a lot of people live in then there would be truly nothing left to live for. If you took away the hope that life meant something, then why bother living? Society would collapse.

Another thing is morality. With religion and belief you have a common morality, almost like a conscience. Without the belief in a higher power then you must accept the idea of a relative morality which would end up being set by the strongest. You would have no right to say that the actions of Hitler, for example, were wrong because you would only be comparing his morality to your own. And, if morality is relative and not a divinely given instinct, then Hitler would be no worse or better than yourself. Take away morality and everything becomes tolerated, which doesn't need much more explanation than that on how it would bring upon a societal collapse.

Edit: I just want to clarify that I am not preaching or anything. I am just stating how this all works out within my own mind through my studies and beliefs. My brother is the strongest atheist I know and I enjoy getting into debates with him. But a true debate is where you can remain friends and family in the end.

 

[JimJohnson]

Family and I recently ventured out on a holiday, and in our travels met up with some friends who we had kept in touch with but that had moved away 10 yrs or so ago.

While sitting down, chatting as our kids were running round a playground, and discussing methods for becoming self sufficient to escape this insane, driving consumerism that the world has formed around, religion came up. This is because I asked (he's a nurse, she's a teacher) "You guys can see this world is going to hell, how are you preparing for it?", and she said "When it happens, we won't be here" with a smug, slightly disdainful look. Knowing they were both born again christians, it only took me about 2 seconds to realise "ahh, rapture". So I asked a few more questions in a completely respectful way, and found they both honestly believe that the world is 6000 years old, as is the universe, and dinosaurs and humans all lived together before the flood, and Adam and Eve were created as perfect human beings, and that god created entropy because they sinned. I asked for proof, was told to google creation science, and so I did. *Wow*.

I am an athiest. I have to ask - how on earth can the human mind take in all the evidence they see around them, read in books, watch on television, hear from highly intelligent people, and disregard it all because a book compiled 1600 years ago tells them to.

I am not smart enough to understand how the faithful can think like this. Can anyone explain it to me in a respectful way, and without saying "because the bible says so"?

Removeing faith is like removing welfare checks. It is a collapse to society as we know it.

Faith is hope, a reason for being. No Faith is basically no religion.

Absence of Faith would remove all order and death and mayhem would prevail

Based on that logic, the faithful believe the genesis story, taking an intellectual bullet so to speak, to prevent the breakdown of civilization? Very noble of them.

Not saying it was noble. I think they used it to be in power. Fear controls people. I see the bible as the first version of "Scared Straight".

 

[wwarwolf911]

For one to understand the "word of god," one must be given access to the entire scripture. Why does the church restrict what is included? Control; there you have it religion is control.

 

[Alexandra]

Family and I recently ventured out on a holiday, and in our travels met up with some friends who we had kept in touch with but that had moved away 10 yrs or so ago.

While sitting down, chatting as our kids were running round a playground, and discussing methods for becoming self sufficient to escape this insane, driving consumerism that the world has formed around, religion came up. This is because I asked (he's a nurse, she's a teacher) "You guys can see this world is going to hell, how are you preparing for it?", and she said "When it happens, we won't be here" with a smug, slightly disdainful look. Knowing they were both born again christians, it only took me about 2 seconds to realise "ahh, rapture". So I asked a few more questions in a completely respectful way, and found they both honestly believe that the world is 6000 years old, as is the universe, and dinosaurs and humans all lived together before the flood, and Adam and Eve were created as perfect human beings, and that god created entropy because they sinned. I asked for proof, was told to google creation science, and so I did. *Wow*.

I am an athiest. I have to ask - how on earth can the human mind take in all the evidence they see around them, read in books, watch on television, hear from highly intelligent people, and disregard it all because a book compiled 1600 years ago tells them to.

I am not smart enough to understand how the faithful can think like this. Can anyone explain it to me in a respectful way, and without saying "because the bible says so"?

Removeing faith is like removing welfare checks. It is a collapse to society as we know it.

Faith is hope, a reason for being. No Faith is basically no religion.

Absence of Faith would remove all order and death and mayhem would prevail

Pretty much, funny, talked about this with my family before I read this. I honestly believe ignorace is bliss. I wish I had faith. I have never been able to sit in a church and believe. I sat there and thought how can these people buy this, this was from a very early age. I wish ssomething would happen that gave me faith, life would be easier. I don't want to atheist, it is what I have become.

 

[SiegeTank]

Christopher Hitchens

If you want some solid answers as to why religion is bad for the world and how the world could survive without religion (in terms of such topics as hope and ethics) check into any of the videos on Youtube that feature him debating ministers and people of the type described above, who blindly believe the earth is 6000 years old and that the rapture is coming for the virtuous.

There are others but Hitchens does a superb job of arguing respectfully and intelligently; the tolerance and politeness he directs toward some of the obsessed narrow-minded religionists he "debates"* with is incredible.

*I say "debate" because the most dedicated religionists don't really debate since there is only one truth, THEIR truth.

I was born Catholic, became an agnostic because I rationalized that it's impossible to "prove" the existence OR the non-existence of God. But now I'm an atheist because I'm convinced when it comes to God or "a god" the burden of proof IS indeed on those who believe "s/he/it" DOES exist since, as Hitchens argues far better than I can, religious beliefs have done so much BAD in the world (Inquisitions, intolerance, religious wars, jihads, etc.) that one is obligated to MAKE the case that this world was created by an all-powerful and/or all-knowing god and then MAKE the case as to if such is true WHY the world is as it is.

Plus, I'd want to know that if God is as traditionally perceived as having been "known" to mankind for the last 2-3 millennium (as almost all currently generally accepted religions claim) where was he for the 100s of millennia previous to that when mankind still existed and why did "he" create a universe with BILLIONS of galaxies EACH containing BILLIONS of stars just for the purpose of putzing around with one species of life form known as "human beings" on one essentially inconsequential ball of rock orbiting about one totally average and "non-special" ball of fire in our neighborhood of a non-descript galaxy. Hitchens posits this question much better than I can and after hearing him any reasonably open-minded person will tend to start developing at least SOME doubts.

Of course, discussing religion is probably even MORE dangerous than discussing politics so anyone reading this thread should probably equip their tin-foil personal protection equipment!

 

[smason]

Pretty much, funny, talked about this with my family before I read this. I honestly believe ignorance is bliss. I wish I had faith. I have never been able to sit in a church and believe. I sat there and thought how can these people buy this, this was from a very early age. I wish something would happen that gave me faith, life would be easier. I don't want to atheist, it is what I have become.

Why do you need to be either, not knocking you at all just curious why does someone needs to be one of the other. I mean if a person says they are not a believer but they believe that there is no god then to me that makes them a believer of some sorts.

I take the path i guess of religion being used as a tool to control people and to gather power. If you look back since recorded history religion has always been the backbone of society and used to control and persecute people for money or power.

I have had many friends that were devout followers that would be in the church every time the doors were open, they used the church as a networking tool to advance themselves politically or for business gains. I see most religious people as being hypocrites but maybe that's just my experience.

To me its a book written years ago as a guide line for society morality and a tool to manipulate the masses.

But everyone has their own opinions

 

[PumpThump]

I take the path i guess of religion being used as a tool to control people and to gather power. If you look back since recorded history religion has always been the backbone of society and used to control and persecute people for money or power.

There are thousands of non-religious organizations world-wide that seek to obtain power, gather followers, control people, accumulate wealth, etc. I hate it when people use that as a tool against religions because they definitely do not hold a monopoly on this.

 

[Nicedreamsbt]

I always wondered why people go straight to atheist and not just sit as agnostic. They take the lack of evidence as no evidence of any kind of creator. But you can prov that there is no god.

I like to keep a open mind about it because i do not know. We can only know when I die i hope so it should be the greatest adventure ever to die and possibly know some truth.

 

[JimJohnson]

I take the path i guess of religion being used as a tool to control people and to gather power. If you look back since recorded history religion has always been the backbone of society and used to control and persecute people for money or power.

There are thousands of non-religious organizations world-wide that seek to obtain power, gather followers, control people, accumulate wealth, etc. I hate it when people use that as a tool against religions because they definitely do not hold a monopoly on this.

Show me one entity richer then Roman Catholic Church. They influence regardless of religion.

 

[Alexandra]

I always wondered why people go straight to atheist and not just sit as agnostic. They take the lack of evidence as no evidence of any kind of creator. But you can prov that there is no god.

I like to keep a open mind about it because i do not know. We can only know when I die i hope so it should be the greatest adventure ever to die and possibly know some truth.

Atheist is a dirty word agnostic is much safer. I guess I'm somewhere more in the middle.

 

[SiegeTank]

Not sure how you can be somewhere in the middle between agnosticism and atheism. Agnosticism is already "somewhere in the middle" between believing in God and believing there is NO god. What IS "somewhere in the middle" between "I don't know if there is a God" and "There is NO God" ?

IMO agnosticism is a wishy-washy position. The existence, or lack thereof, of God is probably THE most important question faced by humanity. Although it didn't HAVE to be. It's conceivable that it would have never been raised. I'm guessing that monkeys don't worry about a supreme deity. But since some humans raised it a long time ago and a lot of cultural and political decisions which affect us all are influenced by the answer, I think it's important for people to think about it.

Keep in mind if God of some sort does exist, it doesn't follow either that (a) there is an afterlife, or (b) there is absolute "right and wrong". Nothing about the notion of a supreme being requires that human beings enjoy spiritual immortality. And God COULD be a bad guy. That might explain to some extent the evils in the world!

 

[riot]

I take the path i guess of religion being used as a tool to control people and to gather power. If you look back since recorded history religion has always been the backbone of society and used to control and persecute people for money or power.

There are thousands of non-religious organizations world-wide that seek to obtain power, gather followers, control people, accumulate wealth, etc. I hate it when people use that as a tool against religions because they definitely do not hold a monopoly on this.

Show me one entity richer then Roman Catholic Church. They influence regardless of religion.

Do not confuse wealth and riches with how much someone/something spends.

Here is a list of 175 of the richest entities in the world with the lowest being $71.4 billion. In comparison, the Roman Catholic church only has an estimated net worth of about $10-$15 billion. People who put their net worth in the hundreds of billions are factoring in priceless artifacts that will never be sold off and are on display in museums for the public to view. A priceless artifact, building, Scripture, etc etc is just that...priceless.

http://dstevenwhite.com/2012/08/11/the-top-175-global-economic-entities-2011/

Here's something to consider:

It is estimated that in 2012 the Vatican and other church owned entities within the United States alone spent $170 BILLION..in one year.

A break down of that $170 billion is something like this:

The Economist estimates that 57% of the church's U.S. spending went to Catholic health care networks, with an additional 28% to colleges, 6% to day-to-day operations at local parishes and dioceses, and 2.7% to national charities.

The church is also the largest charitable organization in the U.S. Its main group, Catholic Charities USA, along with its subsidiaries, reportedly has a paid staff of more than 65,000 and serves more than 10 million people. The Economist says it distributed nearly $5 billion in aid to the poor in 2010, with nearly two-thirds of those funds coming from state, local and federal government agencies.

So what is the break down on that 170 billion that was spent on the community and education?

$96.9 billion on providing healthcare for people.

$47.6 billion to colleges across the nation.

$10.2 billion for day to day operations at local churches and whatnot.

$4.59 billion to other non-church related charities across the nation.

While the church may take in a lot of money, they also pump a lot of it back in to the communities that it is a part of. I believe their last financial report actually reported a loss in funds because donations were down.

Then there's the sexual assault by priests that need to be paid for:

However, the church has also suffered very high-profile financial losses due to some horrific scandals."The molestation and rape of children by priests in America has resulted in more than $3.3 billion of settlements over the past 15 years," The Economist notes, "$1.3 billion of that in California." And while that might seem a small sum for an organization that can dole out $170 billion, most of those settlements were made by local religious orders and dioceses, which have had to*scramble*to find those funds.

In comparison to, lets say, Walmart..

Walmart has a NET WORTH of roughly $447 billion. So how much did they give to charity and helping the community?

$1 billion or less than one quarter of a percent or ~0.224%

Take it for what it's worth I guess.

Sources:

http://dstevenwhite.com/2012/08/11/the-top-175-global-economic-entities-2011/

http://news.walmart.com/news-archiv...cal-year-exceeds-1-billion-for-the-first-time

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,833509,00.html

http://money.msn.com/now/post.aspx?post=1a685537-b674-462d-9189-21772d2f4be4
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[JimJohnson]

I see that talks about US business. I never said a US entity.


Roman Catholic Church?s wealth impossible to calculate | National Post

It is impossible to calculate.

 

[riot]

Before someone jumps in and claims I'm something that im not...

I'm not Catholic. I don't follow any religion. I believe, like others said, that religion is kinda ehhh. I believe in something higher but I don't believe in prophets and all that other jazz. I believe in science and evolution while also accepting there are things that science is unable to prove. Believing that there is a God does not require that you claim allegiance to organized religion. You can be a good person without a religious title.

That being said, and scandals aside, I don't believe anyone can honestly claim that churches don't do a lot of good within the communities that they serve. A lot of people rely on them for help whether it be financial, food, spiritual, educational or just someone to talk to.

As for the sick fuckers who abuse their status to hurt young children..they should be hung from the trees and removed from society

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[JimJohnson]

Before someone jumps in and claims I'm something that im not...

I'm not Catholic. I don't follow any religion. I believe, like others said, that religion is kinda ehhh. I believe in something higher but I don't believe in prophets and all that other jazz. I believe in science and evolution while also accepting there are things that science is unable to prove. Believing that there is a God does not require that you claim allegiance to organized religion. You can be a good person without a religious title.

That being said, and scandals aside, I don't believe anyone can honestly claim that churches don't do a lot of good within the communities that they serve. A lot of people rely on them for help whether it be financial, food, spiritual, educational or just someone to talk to.

As for the sick fuckers who abuse their status to hurt young children..they should be hung from the trees and removed from society

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Those pay break downs left out the millions they set aside for sexual assault charges yearly.

That aside. I have to mostly agree.