McDonald v. Chicago oral arguments tomorrow (3/2/10)

[rob]

Hello!

I'm not sure that anyone here cares, but tomorrow the Supreme Court will hear McDonald v. Chicago. The question they will be answering is:

Whether the Second Amendment is incorporated into the Due Process Clause or the Privileges or Immunities Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment so as to be applicable to the States, thereby invalidating ordinances prohibiting possession of handguns in the home.

Now even if you aren't a fan of firearms, this may still be of interest to you. The 14th amendment was 'gutted' by the Slaughterhouse cases. This amendment basically stated that citizens were born with certain privileges or immunities and the gov't can't take those away.

This means that depending on the ruling, you may see a few new rights returned to you that you previously did not have (even outside of gun ownership).

 

[rob]

For those interested, the transcript is up:

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/08-1521.pdf

It doesn't look like there will be audio recordings.

My favorite part so far:

MR GURA: "Justice Sotomayor, states may have grown accustomed to violating the rights of American citizens, but that does not bootstrap those violations into something that is constitutional."

It looks like SCOTUS will uphold the Slaughterhouse cases (unfortunately) but the second amendment will likely be incorporated via the due process clause.

 

[wilbunk]

yep

With american citizenship comes inherint rights that can never be taken away by the state. If the state tries to take away a right such as gun ownership.... i dont even wanna think about that. i love being a gun owner. Im ex military and i own my fair share of toys. I swear to god and you can hold me to this. If someone would try to take my guns away id be on the F***ing news.

 

[DemonH2]

There has to be a limit somewhere though. Personally I don't wan't Bubba Joe to have anti aircraft in his back yard.

 

[rob]

DemonH2,

Currently Heller v. DC stated that 'common' arms cannot be banned. I'm not sure if they would believe anti-aircraft to be common arms, but definitely an ar15 is.

The part that will be hard to define will be weapons controlled by Federal laws (NFA '34, GCA '68, etc). With the current composition of the courts, I don't foresee these laws being struck down.

also:

yay guns

 

[kirbanmanaburn]

I hope the government takes all of your guns. All of them. Fuck guns.

 

[rob]

It won't happen. Heller v D.C. has made that an impossibility for the federal government, McDonald v Chicago will make it an impossibility for the state governments.

It's actually funny...PorI would open the door to gay marriage, marijauana legalization, and various other things the left loves and the right abhors. This is why the NRA split Gura's time and had Clement argue Due Process.

tl;dr version:

the gun bans will fall. the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed (unless you're a felon, mentally incompetent, or in a sensitive area). Maybe it will open the door for other rights, as well.

 

[scuff11]

I hope the government takes all of your guns. All of them. Fuck guns.

dont understand, why would you want the government to take away one of YOUR rights ....? apparently you do not use guns for recreational use or even some home protection?

 

[JimJohnson]

I hope the government takes all of your guns. All of them. Fuck guns.

I am not a gun lover, I don't even actually own one. But if the government told me I could not have one it would piss me the fuck off. Last time I checked I served my country to defend the right to personal freedom when it does not hurt another. Having a gun doesn't hurt anyone. Sure as hell doesn't hurt you.

Regardless if they made guns illegal, if you really think that would reduce crime, or make the world safer then, again we need to start a new thread so I can insult your intellectual ability.

 

[kirbanmanaburn]

JJ, your owning a gun makes me more nervous than most would. If I were running the "Federal Bureau of Take Peoples Guns Away" I would put your name at the top of the list.

My rights? I gladly surrender my rights to own a firearm. Take 'em away, boys.

 

[scuff11]

JJ, your owning a gun makes me more nervous than most would. If I were running the "Federal Bureau of Take Peoples Guns Away" I would put your name at the top of the list.

My rights? I gladly surrender my rights to own a firearm. Take 'em away, boys.

i hope there is never an instance were you are in need of a fire arm to protect your loved ones.... because when the gov. takes fire arms away the criminals will most likley have them, gluck to you, btw what other right would you willing surrender

 

[JimJohnson]

JJ, your owning a gun makes me more nervous than most would. If I were running the "Federal Bureau of Take Peoples Guns Away" I would put your name at the top of the list.

My rights? I gladly surrender my rights to own a firearm. Take 'em away, boys.

When a mod gets around split this off to a new thread so I can have a nice conversation without getting this thread locked and moderated at a later point in time.

 

[Villageidiot]

How about we just get back to the topic at hand and not take shots at eachother.

 

[JimJohnson]

How about we just get back to the topic at hand and not take shots at eachother.

But that's no fun and if you notice I am trying to play nice =(

 

[Villageidiot]

But that's no fun and if you notice I am trying to play nice =(

I know and i appreciate it.

 

[kirbanmanaburn]

Sorry, but I'll be protecting my family by making good decisions about how to be in the world, and teaching my children to do the same. If my kids find themselves in a situation where a gun is the only thing standing between them and their mortality, either a tragedy has taken place that a gun is at best unlikely to remedy, or they've made some bad decisions along the way.

The world isn't as full of crazies and rapists and pedophiles as you folks assume it is, and your assumption indicates nothing about your love of individual rights, and a whole lot about a very specific kind of fearful alienation from your fellow man. I'm not some sheltered suburbanite. I've lived in some severely screwed up places. In fact, I deal with the after effects of a severe head injury every day. I got it when someone hit me with a baseball hat, stole my wallet, and pissed on me while I was laying on the pavement. I was coming out of a homeless shelter where I'd been volunteering all day. I got blindsided. A gun wouldn't have done a thing to help me.

And I harbor no bitterness over it. Things like this happen when you live in a world full of inequality and bitterness. And guns only further alienate people from each other. Work to fix some of the systemic problems that marginalize huge tracts of our society, and it becomes safer. Buy a gun, and your life (statistically, this is proven) becomes more dangerous than it was before.

I know it's hard for gun-owning types to wrap their heads around how they could do their part to lower the unemployment rate or raise the minimum wage or provide more affordable housing to the working poor, but doing any of these things would make the world safer a hell of a lot quicker than buying a gun would. The former takes thought, the latter is purely reactionary.

 

[DemonH2]

I forsee this becoming a Democrap vs Republicants discussion.

 

[BlueBug]

I enjoy duck and deer hunting. Good times, great memories, quality time with the other men in my family. The best memories I have of my Grandfather are of us hunting and him teaching responsibility to me by way of a gun.

Nothing there about self defense or the need of an individiual to own a weapon to fend off the barbarians at the wall. Just good heart warming memories of a grandson and a Grandfather, hunting together, with the evil guns.

On the other side, I have used a gun in self defense. Evil crazy people did come a' calling on me. The only reason I'm still alive today to raise my son is because I had a weapon and the balls to use it to take anothers life instead of being a victim. I'm still here to have my nightmares, scarey as they are I'm still alive to have themI too was blindsided but in my situation I won, he lost. I lived to continue to enjoy the life I have.

Regardless of ones opinion on gun rights we should shit on Kirb (or anybody else) because he dosen't want to own guns. Good on you man, but please, don't push that belief on others. I own several guns and would like to keep them. I can't wait to take my little boy hunting for the 1st time (hes too young now) because it is a bonding experience that can't be erased. Also, we'll need to bring the shotguns.


Blue~

 

[JimJohnson]

I wish I was young and blind to the real world still.


As for Rep/Demo I say shoot both of those bitches. They both bend us over the counter and ass fuck us with an elephants cock.

Please enlighten us on how not buying a gun helps unemployment. Just a side note if you didn't realize it if small business that are hurting currently are forced to raise minimum wage a good chance they will have to downsize to account for the extra added overhead they just picked up. Increasing unemployment. higher minimum wage doesn't do any real good. Fix inflation and make our $ worth something and its fine where it is.

I know it's hard for gun-owning types to wrap their heads around how they could do their part to lower the unemployment rate or raise the minimum wage or provide more affordable housing to the working poor, but doing any of these things would make the world safer a hell of a lot quicker than buying a gun would. The former takes thought, the latter is purely reactionary.

 

[kirbanmanaburn]

Well, if you put two and two together and get six, JJ, that's not my problem.

I didn't say owning a gun would help unemployment. I just said that purchasing a gun is a gesture that runs ethically opposite to taking some sort of thoughtful, constructive action toward the world. That kind of action (taken as a national community) is what would give us the sort of peace of mind you're chasing when you talk about protection a la firearms.

And as far as that totally oblivious remark about companies losing money if they raised the minimum wage, one only has to look back a few decades to see that claim has been made in the most dire manner every time the minimum wage has gone up or other workers' benefits have been protected by act of legislation. And it's never had a serious negative effect on the marketplace. If you think businesses are going to start dying off because they have to do better by their workers, you're crazy. The potential consequence is just that they'll further outsource their labor, but that's a scenario that's been made possible by the very kind of deregulation anti-government whackos champion.

I seem to remember that when organized labor was fighting for the two day weekend, similar claims were being made. Would you like to volunteer to work every Saturday for the rest of your life, JJ? If not, you better start thanking organized labor for that 2nd day of weekend freedom. They won it for you, and they had to fight long and hard to do that.